How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

[Impostor]

Two days ago I uploaded my "finished" track to bandcamp. But now I've spent almost the same amount of time revising it again and again, as I spent in making the track in the first place (two days vs. three days). After every revision, I discover additional things I'm not satisfied with.

As long as every revision is an actual improvement I'm not complaining of course, and as long as I'm not completely fed up with hearing it over and over I'll probably keep on revising. But I'm curious, when do YOU decide enough's enough?

[sunrat]

Only three days? Take heart that Talk Talk's last album "Laughing Stock" took a year to record, using about 50 guest musicians of whom only 18 made it onto the album, and 120 tracks of which 80% were not used. It is considered by some (including me) to be a masterpiece which, although it may not grab you at first listen, rewards deeper involvement by touching your soul.
The album story is an intriguing read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughing_Stock
The sublime "After The Flood" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YQBC5EkDJw

[Impostor]

Only three days?

Yes, that happens sometimes. I like it when that happens, because then I can fine-tune it with a relatively fresh mindset. If I spend weeks arranging a track, then by the end I've heard it so often that I'm sick of it (happened with my previous track).

Lucky I don't perform, then I'd have to hear it even more!

[Impostor]

The sublime "After The Flood" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YQBC5EkDJw

That's indeed a great track. I may purchase that cd (yes, I still buy cd's!).

[folderol]

There is no such thing as a "finished" song. You can always find things that could be improved. Recently I did that with a tune I composed in 1993.

[Impostor]

There is no such thing as a "finished" song. You can always find things that could be improved. Recently I did that with a tune I composed in 1993.

Good point. I should rephrase my question: How do you decide when you are provisionally finished with a song? Do you usually still tweak your tracks after you've uploaded them? Or is it, upload and move on to the next one?

[Impostor]

I just found that the best way to finish one, is starting another :)
Gone is my compulsion to go back and back again to see if I can find remaining flaws. It is what it is.

[folderol]

There is no such thing as a "finished" song. You can always find things that could be improved. Recently I did that with a tune I composed in 1993.

Good point. I should rephrase my question: How do you decide when you are provisionally finished with a song? Do you usually still tweak your tracks after you've uploaded them? Or is it, upload and move on to the next one?

There just comes a point where I'm happy with a track - later I might revisit it on a whim. It varies enormously. I'll often listen to stuff I've completed a few weeks previously and think they are not as good as they could be, but might still just leave them as they are. Then there's the ones that I referred to where I'll do a remix many months or years later - often changing the instrumentation.

[tseaver]

I've got a friend / songwriting mentor who says,

Just keep rewriting until you hear the song on the radio.

I find that I don't quite agree: there are songs of mine which don't get better when I mess with them, and a bunch of others where all I really need is a better vocal recording: I'm usually rushing that last bit (e.g., while working on February Album Writing Month, https://fawm.org/).

I've definitely been more successful "fixing" a mix by scrapping the Ardour / Mixbus project and re-importing the raw tracks into a fresh one, than iterating endlessly on a project.

[glowrak guy]

I generally scrap a recording in the moment I mess it up, and start a new take. Editing for my own satisfaction
takes time. If it's worth hearing many times for enjoyment, it's worth hearing many times to perfect it. I will need it to be reasonably perfect.
Better a flawless 8 minute song, than 12 minutes with sloppy play, poor design, or just fundamental mediocrity. The questions I often pose to the
ego in the mirror:

"Is there a compelling reason for this music to exist?" Is there a compelling reason
anyone would want to hear this music twice, or even finish hearing it once?"

I don't always enjoy the honest answers.

[Impostor]

If it's worth hearing many times for enjoyment, it's worth hearing many times to perfect it. [..] Better a flawless 8 minute song, than 12 minutes with sloppy play, poor design, or just fundamental mediocrity.

Ah, but here I experience a correlation: the more I hear my own stuff, the more mediocre it becomes. That already begins while my tracks are still under construction.

And that remains a problem when I keep on revising in search of that elusive perfection: instead of experiencing improvements, I start to become less and less satisfied with what I hear.

And it is not clear if this dissatisfaction is due to actual mediocrity or simply due to overexposure (and these causes aren't mutually exclusive either). I can certainly accept a certain amount of mediocrity in my creations: they are -my- mediocrities after all. But too much is too much..

For me, I think the best course of action is simply to stop working on a track when I stop having fun doing it. Only, this conficts with my inner nitpicker nature :)

[Impostor]

I've got a friend / songwriting mentor who says,

Just keep rewriting until you hear the song on the radio.

I find that I don't quite agree

I vehemently disagree with your friend. Radioplay is certainly not a measure of quality. I tend to think the opposite. Not always of course, but often. But I may just have bad taste in music, and I cannot objectively determine a song's quality, without my personal taste in music having any influence.

[Loki Harfagr]

I've got a friend / songwriting mentor who says,

Just keep rewriting until you hear the song on the radio.

I find that I don't quite agree

I vehemently disagree with your friend. Radioplay is certainly not a measure of quality. I tend to think the opposite. Not always of course, but often. But I may just have bad taste in music, and I cannot objectively determine a song's quality, without my personal taste in music having any influence.

Just about that false controversy I'd dare link to some loosy song of mine not even using Linux stuff since at the time Linus still was in high-school but at least since on an Atari1040 using a fresh novel soft named "Creator" already fighting the rollercoasters coming
anyway, heres's the link http://thedarkdesign.free.fr/80s.html and the song is (first on that page) "And You Don't" (have mercy for the sound quality from a rotten k7 tape almost all stuck by years while trying to extract it from its case and offered tons of flutter on my flubber).

[Impostor]

I've got a friend / songwriting mentor who says,

I find that I don't quite agree

I vehemently disagree with your friend. Radioplay is certainly not a measure of quality. I tend to think the opposite. Not always of course, but often. But I may just have bad taste in music, and I cannot objectively determine a song's quality, without my personal taste in music having any influence.

Just about that false controversy :wink: I'd dare link to some loosy song of mine not even using Linux stuff since at the time Linus still was in high-school but at least since on an Atari1040 using a fresh novel soft named "Creator" already fighting the rollercoasters coming 8) :D
anyway, heres's the link http://thedarkdesign.free.fr/80s.html and the song is (first on that page) "And You Don't" (have mercy for the sound quality from a rotten k7 tape almost all stuck by years while trying to extract it from its case and offered tons of flutter on my flubber). :P :D :arrow:

Your song's perfect for radioplay ;)

[hefxthoth]

When I've spent more than three days mixing and I'm starting to detest and consider not to release my track, then enought is enought: That's the moment to render, register and upload my song.
Sounds radical, but I've learned and I'm still learning a lot doing this way. Otherwise, I would not have published anything yet: whatever place for your work is better than trash.

There are many errors you can't solve in mixing, and even less in mastering: is not that frequency of the kick, the problem is the kick; is not the volume of the hihat, is the hihat; is not the midrange of the pad, is the pad...
Some people (I admire) can go back to the arrangement and solve these problems weeks or months later. I can't. Is frustrating for me and I prefer start with something new.

Particullary when you're a lonely bedroom producer and you have to do all the production processed alone, I would recommend (from my personal experience and some disastrous sonic fails) to have your own final reference from early stages of instrument choices, sound design and musical arrangement. This could be controversial, but less or more the same in terms of loudness. Some producers (and pros) says to don't care about that when you're composing or in the earlier stages of production, but this advice is not for me and I would recommend to all producers who frustrates at the end of their work to take control of the final result from the beginning.