LinuxMusicians

My computer is running Ubuntu 18.04 which is pretty old, and here and there hitting wall with too old glibc. At least some AudioAssault plugins and latest Bitwig.

Sure easiest thing would be just upgrade to Ubuntu 20.04 and right away to 22.04. And when downloading some software, ubuntu lts is the best optio, all software is built for it. However, there is some things that are making me reconsider.
- I don't like snap, and ubuntu tends to use it on many cases
- I don't like systemd

My requirements are
- I need X, Wayland is impossible thing: need to use synergy (or actually, fork of it, barrier). And sure, don't want to leave AwesomeWM.
- want winehq packages, too lazy to compile myself
- kxstudio packages are much wanted, but it might be possible to live without those

I don't need specific audio-oriented distro, I am seasoned linux veteran and can tune my system myself.

So what is your suggestion for my reqs?

First suggestion from IRC: Devuan

AV Linux - MX Edition fills all your requirements. No snap, SysV as default although systemd is available.

I agree with you about snap, it's seriously deficient and insecure to boot.
Systemd I don't like or dislike. I use it in Debian and it works well. It makes some things easier but is something which takes a little reading if you want to get under the hood just like anything new. I do like journalctl compared to the old logs. Those against it were mainly concerned about philosophical aspects rather than practical.

Devuan is reputed to be a decent non-systemd respin of Debian stable. But that means it will be well behind cutting edge software as Debian is only released every couple of years and the Devuan has to work with that so may be even further behind Debian. One instance I found recently while experimenting with Pipewire is qpwgraph is not available in Debian stable but is in Testing and Unstable.

I'd probably go with Artix, it's Arch without systemd.

sysrqer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:52 am I'd probably go with Artix, it's Arch without systemd.

How about kxstudio, winehq and commercial softwares, any problem with them?

tavasti wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:03 am How about kxstudio, winehq and commercial softwares, any problem with them?

Kxstudio only has deb repositories, winehq no idea but don't think they have arch.
Commercial software tend to not have arch packages either.

tavasti wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:03 am How about kxstudio, winehq and commercial softwares, any problem with them?

I think almost all the kxstudio stuff is available either in the regular repos or AUR, and in fact there is a lot more available than there is in the kxstudio repos these days.

Wine and wine-staging are packages in the arch repos so they are updated as soon as they are released, they come directly from winehq so it's very easy.

I use bitwig, reaper, renoise, audio assault etc and no real problems. I have an issue with VCV Rack Pro, it doesn't work in bitwig for me but it seems to be graphics related so it may not affect many other people. No other problems that I can think of.

Oh and it is very easy to install stuff from .deb packages if you need to, look into debtap.

tavasti wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:11 am My computer is running Ubuntu 18.04 [...]
- I don't like systemd
[...]

Doesn't Ubuntu 18 use systemd? Or is that how you learned that you don't like systemd?

Anyway, considering that Pipewire works much better on the latest and greatest distro's I'd update to Ubuntu 22.04 or even try to wait for the next Ubunty LTS (long term support). I think that Pipewire is inevitable.

I'm not so sure that one can get rid of systemd and have good 3rd party support like in Ubuntu...

sunrat wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:33 am AV Linux - MX Edition fills all your requirements. No snap, SysV as default although systemd is available.

I feel it is too small project. I don't want to do re-install often, and want to have system suported with regular security updates.

sunrat wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:33 am Systemd I don't like or dislike. I use it in Debian and it works well. It makes some things easier but is something which takes a little reading if you want to get under the hood just like anything new. I do like journalctl compared to the old logs. Those against it were mainly concerned about philosophical aspects rather than practical.

Systemd works ok, but I feel it is too big risk. Init should be minimal. And logs, I prefer log files, so that I can grep them, they can be properly rotated, etc.

sunrat wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:33 am Devuan is reputed to be a decent non-systemd respin of Debian stable. But that means it will be well behind cutting edge software as Debian is only released every couple of years and the Devuan has to work with that so may be even further behind Debian. One instance I found recently while experimenting with Pipewire is qpwgraph is not available in Debian stable but is in Testing and Unstable.

Considering that I am now still running 18.04, I don't think I am too much bleeding edge side Having distro which has bit slow release cycle is ok, no need to do major upgrades often and maybe working less as beta tester.

Linuxmusician01 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:08 pm Doesn't Ubuntu 18 use systemd? Or is that how you learned that you don't like systemd?

Yeah, 18.04 has systemd. It hasn't caused any issues on my personal use, but in work servers, yes. I think systemd is risk, and should be avoided.

Linuxmusician01 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:08 pm Anyway, considering that Pipewire works much better on the latest and greatest distro's I'd update to Ubuntu 22.04 or even try to wait for the next Ubunty LTS (long term support). I think that Pipewire is inevitable.

I'm not so sure that one can get rid of systemd and have good 3rd party support like in Ubuntu...

Waiting for 24.04 is definitely too long time, something is to be done now. I am ok having Pipewire, but have to say I haven't had any big problems with running jack + pulseaudio, things working ok, so even without Pipewire everything ok.

And for sure, 3rd party support is not as good as ubuntu has, but big question is that if 3rd party stuff works ok even they aren't officially supported.

tavasti wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:18 pm [...]
And for sure, 3rd party support is not as good as ubuntu has, but big question is that if 3rd party stuff works ok even they aren't officially supported.

I understand what you mean. Even "simple" things like Chrome (instead of Chromium) and Wine-staging I have to add to my distro (Ubuntu 20). Stuff like that works well of course.

Another thing that keeps me away from exotic solutions and/or distro's is support and knowledge from the user community. I've been using Linux for over 15 years and I still have to ask and look things up in forums. Unfortunately, how basic things work changes per year in Linux (opposed to Windows). Getting Help is hard if you use a not-so-popular distro or configuration (like a systemd-less setup). Linux is hard enough as it is. Having to invent the wheel every time yourself is even harder.

However, if puzzling w/ Linux and/or computers is your hobby, like it was mine (it ain't anymore), then the world is your oister w/ Linux.

Made test install with devuan to another computer, and will try if everything works

Ok, it looks like Devuan works without problems.

- Seems to be running Xorg, connecting with barrier ok
- Awsome runs ok
- I can install packages from winehq and kxstudio
- bitwig 4.3 works
- wine works
- carla itself works, but due to bug, it can't be used to launch windows plugins, but can use yabridge

So my next step is to start making arrangements how do I re-install my real machine. I have LVM over raid1, but unfortunately vg so full that I have problems fitting system there. And in addition, I have used xfs filesystem, which does not have in-place fs shrinking. So making more room for new system needs more work.

Edit: Devuan has pipewire installed, so I think I need to learn configure and use it before messing my real computer, in my tests I was starting jack with qjackctl

Devuan is based on Debian Bullseye, and debian wiki says:

In Debian 11, PipeWire 0.3.19 is available, and can be experimentally used as a substitute for the ALSA userspace library, PulseAudio, and JACK. This is a documented but unsupported use-case.

And here also someone posted how to disable pipewire in debian. So maybe it is good idea I stay still in jack + pulse, because that has worked ok for me?

If memory serves pipewire was installed but not used in Bullseye. No need to disable it.