What session managers do people prefer?

What other apps and distros do you use to round out your studio?

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Largos
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by Largos »

I can only really recommend Ray Session now. Because of this https://github.com/jackaudio/new-sessio ... /issues/15 Agordejo now prompts me to move my project files to a hidden folder every time I log in. I click No but it prompts this every log in. Why I would want this, I don't know.
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by nils »

Because it is the XDG standard.

You can also just create a symlink from your homedir to the new directory.
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by HarryR »

folderol wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:13 pm I don't use any session manager - it would be superflous. There are just two things I always want, and they are in my startup script. I press one button and the whole setup starts in the correct sequence - including amplifier (last), external keyboards, soundcanvas and controllers. When I've finished I press the same button and everything shuts down in the safest sequence.

Rosegarden is the last thing to be started in the computer, and it immediately looks for the keyboards soundcanvas and Yoshimi. I'm actually using both soundcanvas and the SY35 inbuilt sounds less and less these days. Very rarely indeed I might start qsynth.

What do I need a session manager for? It would just get in the way.

Hmmm. It seems I (partially) repeat myself. Sorry for that.
I think you're right. I use(d) a batch solution, but thought, if there are sessionmanagers give them a chance.
They had there chance, I'll check out in the next days if there are features I really like and give me a reason for usage ..
Up to now I must say, they are all lacking things which I think are a must have

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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by folderol »

XDG? WTF!
I find that incredibly arrogant. The only person who decides where my project files go is me.
The Yoshimi guy {apparently now an 'elderly'}
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by Largos »

nils wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:01 pm Because it is the XDG standard.

You can also just create a symlink from your homedir to the new directory.
I know it's some standard but I don't care, it's less convenient than before and less convenient than a program that not only keeps the files in a more accessible location by default but also allows you to change the session folder to anywhere on the machine.
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by Natelok »

I'm 100% commited to Raysession. I found it immediately intuitive and easy to set up templates etc, and now I have hundreds of sessions, since I use it as the basis of all of my work, including ardour/Mixbus. I used to use NSM when it was Non.

I don't think there's anything wrong with NSM particularly, I just found Ray a little bit easier to understand, so I converted all of my NSM sessions with very few issues and now I'm fully on the ray train. I never liked Claudia. I've never tried the alamagordo one (sorry I forget the real name...). Used NSM for years but after the split and then a few minor issues I tried Ray and I just like it better.
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by LAM »

HarryR wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:08 pm Up to now I must say, they are all lacking things which I think are a must have
NSM original features are:

Audio Subsystem Independence
NSM does not depend directly on JACK or any other audio subsystem. This means that ALSA or OSS only applications, non-audio applications, or applications using as-yet unknown audio subsystems may participate in a session.

Saving/restoring the JACK connection graph is accomplished by the (included) JackPatch client.

Data Locality
NSM clients are required to store all project data in a location known to the user. The user should always know where all the data for a session is. Sessions can be archived with simple tools like 'tar'.

Multi-Host Sessions
NSM is the only session manager to support distrubuted sessions across multiple hosts, controllable via a single interface.

Well Defined Behavior
NSM compliant clients must present a uniform project control interface to the user. The meaning of 'save', etc. under session management is unambiguous.

Zero Direct Depenencies for Clients
NSM does not require client applications to link to any library. It only requires that they implement the published OSC API, using their choice of OSC library.

Fast Session Switching
Smart clients are able to switch projects without restarting. This vastly improves project switching times between sessions which utilize the same clients.
Heirarchical Session Layout

Sessions are organized as-named on disk in a heirarchical structure (i.e. Albums/My Album Foo/Final Mix of Bar) and can be managed (deleted, renamed, copied, etc.) with any file-manager.

Simple, Fast and Responsive User Interface
The NSM UI is simple and fast.

Real-time Status Feedback
Clients can report status information to NSM, including loading/saving progress.

Session Management Daemon Controllable via OSC
Don't like the NSM UI? You can build your own and communicate with the server via a simple OSC protocol.
source: Non Session Manager

If you find some of these features interesting, NSM could be for you, otherwise you better look for a simple script or other session management solutions.

The fact you are launching NSM clients with arguments (to load a file) is something that is outside the NSM "philosophy", but nobody will forbid you to do so. That said, RaySession offer the possibilitiy of launching and using arguments for NSM and non NSM applications. See RayHack or Add executable in the RaySession manual.
It's still possible to mix NSM and non NSM apps in a session.
folderol wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:13 pm I don't use any session manager - it would be superflous. There are just two things I always want, and they are in my startup script.
...
What do I need a session manager for? It would just get in the way.
I did the same myself in the past, with time I began to appreciate the centralized save, templates and session switching on the fly offered by NSM and RaySession.
For fixed setups using a session manager could be an unnecessary overhead for some, I agree.
folderol wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:10 pm XDG? WTF!
I find that incredibly arrogant. The only person who decides where my project files go is me.
Standards are made to be worked around, sometimes. :D

Code: Select all

ln -s ... ...
is your friend. :wink:

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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by HarryR »

This thread is very informative and interesting :D

As one can see, some people are satisfied with "their" session-manager,
some not, for different reasons.

I think it's mostly because of the different expectations.

I don't mind about xdg or not, that's kind of how a program is implemented
and there are so many different ways to come to the goal.

Apart from all those things, here are my 2 cents:

- not being able to start a program with parameters reliably is rubbish
- I just need some kind of program that starts all apps, that are necessary to work with my project,
the only thing that is a must is to do all jack-connections automatically, somewhere somehow, but at the end
everything has to be connected !
- so for me - at the moment - it looks like I have to develop a clever script that brings everything together
- that's not in any way ideological, I just want to come to a goal in a relatively short time
AND: I don't want to think about how I have to manipulate a session-manager in a tricky way to come to a goal

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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by LAM »

HarryR wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:20 am - not being able to start a program with parameters reliably is rubbish
I start several programs, NSM and non NSM, with arguments reliably. I guess your case of (non NSM) Carla hanging should be fixable.
HarryR wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:20 am - I just need some kind of program that starts all apps, that are necessary to work with my project,
the only thing that is a must is to do all jack-connections automatically, somewhere somehow, but at the end
everything has to be connected !
That's exactly what RaySession, Agordejo or NSM in general, do (using jackpatch) automatically.
HarryR wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:20 am - so for me - at the moment - it looks like I have to develop a clever script that brings everything together
If you have a fixed setup and no particular needs a simple script could be cleaner and saner, yes.
HarryR wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:20 am - that's not in any way ideological, I just want to come to a goal in a relatively short time
AND: I don't want to think about how I have to manipulate a session-manager in a tricky way to come to a goal
It's upon you to decide to invest time to learn to configure a system that could save you time later. That's what happened to me, once configured now I just fire it up and everything is ready to make music. :)

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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by LAM »

HarryR wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:20 am - not being able to start a program with parameters reliably is rubbish
To solve your problem click on "Add executable", type carla, uncheck NSM protocol.
Then edit the entry (Carla with the "Hack" flag, at the bottom of my screenshot) and select your carxp file from the config file field.

Screenshot:

Image

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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by HarryR »

LAM wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:05 am
HarryR wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:20 am - not being able to start a program with parameters reliably is rubbish
To solve your problem click on "Add executable", type carla, uncheck NSM protocol.
Then edit the entry (Carla with the "Hack" flag, at the bottom of my screenshot) and select your carxp file from the config file field.

Screenshot:

Image
Thank you,I'm gonna try it soon.
Greetz
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by houston4444 »

Hi.
About XDG, of course it is a good idea to follow standards as much as possible, but I really dislike the idea that a session folder should be hidden, I thinks it is a very anti-neophyte concept.

About parameters (CLI arguments), if the NSM server does not accept them, this is for a good reason : you need them very very rarely, and you don't need them to load a file !!!
So, I must say that for a program like Carla (perfectly NSM compatible), adding it via Ray-Hack (non NSM protocol), then load the file, is not a good idea.

NSM provides such features, toggle window visibility, see dirty state, and it respects a safer process (server waits each program answer 'saved' before to close them, for e.g.).

Instead, add Carla from 'Add application' window, save and close Carla, then replace the carla project file in session directory by this one you wants.
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by tramp »

houston4444 wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:09 am About parameters (CLI arguments), if the NSM server does not accept them, this is for a good reason : you need them very very rarely, and you don't need them to load a file !!!
I never understand why NSM wont support CLI args. It would be very trivial to implement. Your given reasons didn't seems to me to be good reasons.
1.) you need them very very rarely -> maybe, but when you need them you need them.
2.) you don't need them to load a file -> no, you need them to hand over commands on startup to a app.
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by houston4444 »

@tramp, actually I agree with you.
What I say is that I understand the reasons why NSM doesn't accept arguments, but I am not agree to be so strict.
1.) you need them very very rarely -> maybe, but when you need them you need them.
That's why RaySession accepts them, with discouragements, because some people will wrongly think this is the way to load a file. But indeed, it works.
It would be very trivial to implement.
Mmmh, not sure, of course start the process with arguments is easy, one problem is that new-nsm promise session compatibility with original nsm. It requires a new session file (old NSM can't read session.nsm with a different line form than name:executable:id).
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Re: What session managers do people prefer?

Post by nils »

> I never understand why NSM wont support CLI args.

The original reasoning was that accepting cli arguments can introduce a conflict. You start a program with a --cli command like "start in rack mode" but then switch it, once it is running, to patchbay mode. Now the session closes and starts again later with --rack . Now what? Traditionally command line arguments have higher priority than saved state (e.g. ardours safe mode starting with all plugins deactivated).
This makes the session unreliable.

The example image in this thread earlier shows exactly the group of people who complain about that: Developers, starting in --debug mode.
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