Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by merlyn »

glowrak guy wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:58 pm Maybe you could create some tutorials for linux devs?
Cheers
Maybe some of the other developers posting in this thread could create some tutorials for jeff on what makes a good UI.
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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by alex stone »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:46 am
Kott wrote: the purpose of hundreds midi tracks
I'm gonna guess what he's doing. I suspect that he's creating an orchestra entirely out of solo instrument VSTs. For example, let's say he wants a 20 piece violin section. Instead of loading one VST that contains a 20 piece string section, he's loading up 20 solo violin VSTs and having them simultaneously play the same midi track. That's his "violin section". And of course that's just one articulation. He also needs 20 solo violin VSTs playing Pizzicato. And 20 more for Tremulo, Etc.

And that's just the violin section. Imagine doing this with every orchestral section. There's where the hundreds of VSTs come in.

And I'm gonna take another guess that he's doing this because he thinks it will more realistically simulate an actual orchestra. But that's a misconception. First of all, if those 20 violins are all the same VST (instead of entirely different sample sets), he could end up creating a sound that is less realistic than a VST of a section of actually different violins. Secondly, as a classical music major in college, I had to learn arranging, and what I learned is that the important thing is not your instrumentation, but rather how you work with it. For example, if it's easier to add nuances like legato bowing, volume swells, etc using a VST of a violin section than it is to do the same thing with 20 separate solo violin VSTs, the latter could end up sounding quite unrealistic.

But the most important thing is; if I've guessed correctly about what it is Alex is doing, then his friends and family need to stage an intervention pronto.
No intervention needed, I'm fine just where I am in the twilight zone.

I don't use VSTs. I start a linuxsampler server instance, then load a template that is setup by instrument/articulation. I don't use 20 VSTs to create a section, I have section samples for that. An example is my 1st violins have 18 artics. The template loads 2 jackmidi ports(16 channels per port). The "spare channels" are used for other instrument articulations, and i'm careful how I route them. Each channel (articulation) is routed to a track in a DAW. This is not rocket science, and quite common in orchestral sample library circles. Massive track templates are more commonplace than you think.

I repeat, for those at the back, snorting in the toilets, and drowning their liver at the bar, I don't use VSTs. I don't have to. Linuxsampler "hosts' the lot, and does so very well indeed.

Loading 20 solo violin VSTs would phase horribly and sound completely unrealistic. (I say that as a former orchestral player.)

Alex.
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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

alex stone wrote: I don't use VSTs. I don't have to. Linuxsampler "hosts' the lot
That's a matter of semantics. SFZ files are the same thing as VSTs except they don't have their own built-in sample-playing engine, and instead of being loaded into any host that supports plugins, they need to be loaded into a specialized host that has an SFZ capable sample-playing engine.

Basically, any software that emulates a real acoustic musical instrument is a VST, regardless of whether it uses sampled waveforms (as sfz's do), physical modeling, or some sort of synthesis like FM.

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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by Largos »

This must be what "mansplaining" is.
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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by alex stone »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:41 pm
alex stone wrote: I don't use VSTs. I don't have to. Linuxsampler "hosts' the lot
That's a matter of semantics. SFZ files are the same thing as VSTs except they don't have their own built-in sample-playing engine, and instead of being loaded into any host that supports plugins, they need to be loaded into a specialized host that has an SFZ capable sample-playing engine.

Basically, any software that emulates a real acoustic musical instrument is a VST, regardless of whether it uses sampled waveforms (as sfz's do), physical modeling, or some sort of synthesis like FM.
If i used SFZs, you'd probably be right.

But I don't.
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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

alex stone wrote: If i used SFZs
But I don't.
Oh no. Don't tell me you use sf2 or gigasampler? Those formats are archaic, and severely limited. They should be in a museum, not a music studio.

You seem to be especially coy about not letting anyone know specifically what you're doing. I'm starting to get the impression that it may be that you did otherwise in the past, and received a bit of disdain regarding your tools and/or techniques. So now you're a bit gun-shy. We have a mystery. Do you have any publically accessible examples of your orchestral works? I'm curious to know what is produced with 1000 midi tracks. Just a listen would tell me a lot. I'll start of with 2 of my own examples (both using an older version of the No Budget Orchestra which is a free sample-based orchestra I put together. The new version does sound a bit better, especially with the legato and cross-fade modes).

Here's an orchestral arrangement I made of a piano solo piece by Norman Dello Joio.
https://soundcloud.com/j_e_f_f_g/dello-joio

And here's an original of mine:
https://soundcloud.com/j_e_f_f_g/hollywood-theme-2

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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by alex stone »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:46 pm
alex stone wrote: If i used SFZs
But I don't.
Oh no. Don't tell me you use sf2 or gigasampler? Those formats are archaic, and severely limited. They should be in a museum, not a music studio.

You seem to be especially coy about not letting anyone know specifically what you're doing. I'm starting to get the impression that it may be that you did otherwise in the past, and received a bit of disdain regarding your tools and/or techniques. So now you're a bit gun-shy. We have a mystery. Do you have any publically accessible examples of your orchestral works? I'm curious to know what is produced with 1000 midi tracks. Just a listen would tell me a lot. I'll start of with 2 of my own examples (both using an older version of the No Budget Orchestra which is a free sample-based orchestra I put together. The new version does sound a bit better, especially with the legato and cross-fade modes).

Here's an orchestral arrangement I made of a piano solo piece by Norman Dello Joio.
https://soundcloud.com/j_e_f_f_g/dello-joio

And here's an original of mine:
https://soundcloud.com/j_e_f_f_g/hollywood-theme-2
I use gigasampler samples, and i don't find that format to be limiting at all. I'm a little surprised at your derision. Using Linuxsampler, they sound as good now as when I bought them, many years ago.
I've hardly been coy. I don't care if others find my workflow derisory or not.
A 500, 750 or 1000 midi track template is just that, a template. You're not going to use every articulation for every instrument, for every piece. It's a start point, and saves a lot of time, or you'd be spending significant amounts of time setting up the orchestra each time.

These are all orginals.

https://soundcloud.com/alextonemusic/fridays

https://soundcloud.com/alextonemusic/cats-cupboard

https://soundcloud.com/alextonemusic/promenadia

https://soundcloud.com/alextonemusic/th ... e-petulant
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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by merlyn »

No-one expects The BackupBand Inquisition. Their chief weapon is surprise. And gaslighting. Their two chief weapons are surprise and gaslighting. And ad hominem. Their three chief wepaons are surprise, gaslighting and ad hominem. And jargon heavy info dumps. Their four chief weapons are surprise, gaslighting, ad hominem and jargon heavy info dumps. And a fanatical devotion to ALSA rawmidi. Their five chief weapons are surprise, gaslighting, ad hominem, jargon heavy info dumps and a fanatical devotion to ALSA rawmidi ...
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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by alex stone »

merlyn wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:35 pm No-one expects The BackupBand Inquisition. Their chief weapon is surprise. And gaslighting. Their two chief weapons are surprise and gaslighting. And ad hominem. Their three chief wepaons are surprise, gaslighting and ad hominem. And jargon heavy info dumps. Their four chief weapons are surprise, gaslighting, ad hominem and jargon heavy info dumps. And a fanatical devotion to ALSA rawmidi. Their five chief weapons are surprise, gaslighting, ad hominem, jargon heavy info dumps and a fanatical devotion to ALSA rawmidi ...
8)
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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by alex stone »

Largos wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:50 pm This must be what "mansplaining" is.
8)
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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

alex stone wrote: I use gigasampler samples
Well, gigastudio was one of the first computer software samplers. Not sure how you see this as any different than using any other sample-based plugin. It's the same technology.
i don't find that format to be limiting at all.
It's actually quite limiting today in that I believe the only software you can use your library with is LinuxSampler. So if something happens to that program, you're in trouble. Plus, you can't use any new sounds because I don't think anyone has made content in that format for many years. I don't know if anyone can even if they wanted to, because I don't think Linuxsampler is a gigasampler editor, and the last time I had any contact with gigastudio, I couldn't even get it running on XP. (Needed proprietary sound drivers. Very old tech).

Actually, the library you're using doesn't sound bad. It's a cohesive set of samples that blend together well (obviously of one symphony). It does lack a little bit of presense (probably distance-miked, to maintain a sample set that would have been generous when you bought it, but by today's standards would not be "large").

What is it? East-west? Miroslav? Who else made gigasampler format?
A 500, 750 or 1000 midi track template is just that, a template.
I got the impression you were claiming that you had hundreds of sampled instruments playing simultaneously in Linuxsampler with JackMidi. Not that you were simply loading a template.

Your originals are nice. Well-arranged. Not my cup of tea though. Reminds me of Grieg or Mussorgsky or Bizet. Lots of hungarian marches and gypsy dances and that sort of ethnic stuff. I'm more of a Bach or Mozart guy for traditional stuff, and Copland is one off my favs for more modern. Love Holst's Planets. Poor Pluto never got a break. The slavic composers do nothing for me, and that's obviously where you're going. And I thought Promenadia was going to break into Ravel's Bolero.

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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by alex stone »

j_e_f_f_g wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:53 am
alex stone wrote: I use gigasampler samples
Well, gigastudio was one of the first computer software samplers. Not sure how you see this as any different than using any other sample-based plugin. It's the same technology.
i don't find that format to be limiting at all.
It's actually quite limiting today in that I believe the only software you can use your library with is LinuxSampler. So if something happens to that program, you're in trouble. Plus, you can't use any new sounds because I don't think anyone has made content in that format for many years. I don't know if anyone can even if they wanted to, because I don't think Linuxsampler is a gigasampler editor, and the last time I had any contact with gigastudio, I couldn't even get it running on XP. (Needed proprietary sound drivers. Very old tech).

Actually, the library you're using doesn't sound bad. It's a cohesive set of samples that blend together well (obviously of one symphony). It does lack a little bit of presense (probably distance-miked, to maintain a sample set that would have been generous when you bought it, but by today's standards would not be "large").

What is it? East-west? Miroslav? Who else made gigasampler format?
A 500, 750 or 1000 midi track template is just that, a template.
I got the impression you were claiming that you had hundreds of sampled instruments playing simultaneously in Linuxsampler with JackMidi. Not that you were simply loading a template.

Your originals are nice. Well-arranged. Not my cup of tea though. Reminds me of Grieg or Mussorgsky or Bizet. Lots of hungarian marches and gypsy dances and that sort of ethnic stuff. I'm more of a Bach or Mozart guy for traditional stuff, and Copland is one off my favs for more modern. Love Holst's Planets. Poor Pluto never got a break. The slavic composers do nothing for me, and that's obviously where you're going. And I thought Promenadia was going to break into Ravel's Bolero.
The main sample library is Sonic Implants Symphonic Collection. Then there's Project Sam Brass, and several others for various instruments.

If I were using Kontakt as the host for example, i'd be doing the same, one format. Worse still for Kontakt, it has a limit of 64 channels per standalone instance. As a VST Kontakt relies on how well the sequencer has been coded for how many VST instances can be loaded in one project. (Whether the VSTs are part of the sequencer process, or are run outside the process)

Linuxsampler does indeed have a gig editor.

If NI were to discontinue Kontakt tomorrow, then a lot of musicians would still be using Kontakt for as long as they could.

Don't think that would happen?

That's what everyone assumed about Tascam, when they suddenly dropped Gigastudio. I know this because I had 5 computers, one for the sequencer, and 4 for hosting gigastudio instances. If one crashed and burned because Gigastudio was unreliable at best, then the other three sampler boxes would go down screaming too. On a regular basis. And I wasn't the only one. Mailing lists were replete with composers sharing tales of woe.


Linuxsampler is the polar opposite. I start it with a full orchestral template, from the command line, right after I start Jack, and LS sits there all day, with nary a worry. It hosts my gig files far more reliably than Gigastudio ever did. And I can load a lot more in a single instance. Linuxsampler goes up to 999 channels. I specifically asked Christian and the team to do this for large orchestral templates, and they obliged, for which they get my continued thanks.
Running two server instances gives me 1998 channels, enough for every instrument/articulation I have.

I also use apps like Grandorgue, which is a standalone organ app.

I do use fugal lines in 2 of the tunes. Does that qualify me for at least some Bach or Beethovenesque kudos?

Alex.
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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by d.healey »

Anyone managed to get it running on Debian testing? I downloaded the trial version installer but the binary doesn't run. Is an AppImage available?

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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by miuzik »

d.healey wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:30 am

Anyone managed to get it running on Debian testing? I downloaded the trial version installer but the binary doesn't run. Is an AppImage available?

Zrythm is really beta software. It update regularly and has new technologies everywhere (GTK4 and others). In Debian stable is a nightmare (impossible to compile). Tell us if you can run it.

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Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by d.healey »

miuzik wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:51 pm

Tell us if you can run it.

If I could I wouldn't have made my post :)

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