Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Support & discussion regarding DAWs and MIDI sequencers.

Moderators: MattKingUSA, khz

User avatar
MyLoFy
Established Member
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:10 am
Location: Berlin
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 36 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by MyLoFy »

Very interesting discussion here! I'd like to add my point of view from a pure user/non-programmer/hobby producer side (I'm sure there are many of my kind even in the linux community):

I avoid pure Alsa whenever I can because it's just very inconvenient in the following scenarios, which come up on a daily basis in my workflow:
  • Online-Ressources: Checking or trying a YouTube tutorial with your DAW open
  • Sound design: When I want to synthesize a timpani I just browse freesound.org, pull up a timpani sound and try to match the sound with a synth. No cumbersome import into the DAW necessary
  • Reference tracks: Oh the most powerful tool for mixing/mastering! I can just fire up a streaming service/CD player and have a listen or run it through analyzers together with the DAW output
I have never really experienced a performance jump when using pure Alsa, so I just don't see the point of using it in my setup.
User avatar
GMaq
Established Member
Posts: 2774
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:42 pm
Has thanked: 520 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by GMaq »

Hi,

To be clear I'm not saying that using Desktop Audio servers shouldn't be one of the options in a good DAW, nor am I saying Audio servers like JACK that are popular with other types of equally valid workflows should not be option... just not the only options in the big picture of working with Linux Audio in a professional sense..

To say JACK is 'not needed' in the context of the DAWs I was speaking about does not equal that it is 'not important' or 'not useful'.
Last edited by GMaq on Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Be.
Established Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:51 am
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by Be. »

GMaq wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:15 pm To say ALSA doesn't properly (or can't) work with a Linux DAW and to suggest I'm the only person who would want this seems a bit dubious.
You're misunderstanding. Of course it is possible for an application to use ALSA. The issue is that for an application to do that, it requires reimplementing what JACK does inside of the application. This is pointless because JACK and Pipewire already do it and present a simpler API for application developers to use.
milkii wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:25 am PipeWire but that emulates JACK API
Technical nitpick: Pipewire does not emulate anything; that's what QEMU does and it has a huge performance overhead. Pipewire reimplements the JACK API.
User avatar
rncbc
Established Member
Posts: 1060
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:20 pm
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 256 times
Contact:

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by rncbc »

fatal error: can't find popcorn
alextee
Established Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:22 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by alextee »

Be. wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:14 pm You're misunderstanding. Of course it is possible for an application to use ALSA. The issue is that for an application to do that, it requires reimplementing what JACK does inside of the application. This is pointless because JACK and Pipewire already do it and present a simpler API for application developers to use.
@GMaq ^ this is what I mean when I say there are is no reason to prefer ALSA. maybe ardour implements ALSA better than JACK or does things differently, but Paul and Robin have much more experience than me with this stuff and I have no interest in learning kernel libraries/don't see the point.

To be clear, I'm not against having ALSA support, I just didn't see the need and it seems to be causing issues to new people trying Zrythm out, but based on what I gather from this thread there is a small minority of users that maybe doesn't have JACK installed and still wants to do "pro audio" stuff without it. In that case the best I can do is offer ALSA via another wrapper library like RtAudio (which seems kinda broken) or I could try my luck with libsoundio.

I did try to implement a proper ALSA backend during the early stages but that was a literal copy paste of some very old code by Paul Davis I found online, which I believe is similar to what JACK does, except that JACK is more properly maintained. That pure ALSA backend is currently broken and I don't understand ALSA enough to fix it. It's relatively easy to fix it if someone knowledgeable in ALSA wants to give it a try - the audio engine interface in Zrythm is pretty simple so it's very easy to add new backends, the hard part is learning the API of the backend you want to implement.

For the time being I will look into adding ALSA support via libsoundio instead of RtAudio and hopefully it works better. I am also thinking to remove the backend selection on startup and have it configurable via preferences only so it will "just work" for most users (including people with no experience with music apps) with default settings I pick (maybe detect if JACK/PipeWire is running and auto-choose JACK, or otherwise set it to PulseAudio which should work everywhere and fallback to dummy gracefully in case PulseAudio is not installed - unlike ALSA which tries to directly access devices).
User avatar
GMaq
Established Member
Posts: 2774
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:42 pm
Has thanked: 520 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by GMaq »

@alextee

Thank you for the clarification, I appreciate the fuller explanation and now I have a better idea of where you're coming from... It was never my intentional to get 'tribal' about Audio servers... I was downplaying the 'need' for JACK in the small context of the DAWs I was discussing but in no way intending to downplay it's importance or relevance outside of that. I still use JACK for some tasks but for doing production work I like using ALSA because in my experience it is more stable and allows trouble-free exporting even if I am ignorant of the Voodoo that is allowing me to do so, for me it is an attractive feature in choosing a DAW. For me Pipewire is not a current reality it is still a future possibility (in a Distribution sense) so perhaps once it is fully baked and all Distros come with it by default we will look back on this thread and chuckle about how silly it was.. :D
alextee
Established Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:22 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by alextee »

GMaq wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:59 pm For me Pipewire is not a current reality it is still a future possibility (in a Distribution sense) so perhaps once it is fully baked and all Distros come with it by default we will look back on this thread and chuckle about how silly it was.. :D
I have been using PipeWire only for many months (maybe close to a year now?) and everything just works nicely (besides a critical bug in the JACK implementation that I reported and has been fixed). I think Fedora already switched to it too, and a lot of the people I talk to already use it so I'm already pretty weirded out by the fact that there are still people wanting to use plain ALSA without JACK or PipeWire or even PulseAudio :lol:

For most desktop users I'd say PipeWire is ready to go but it might need some more stability if you are doing live performances or something like that with it. I wonder when Debian will switch to it
User avatar
rncbc
Established Member
Posts: 1060
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:20 pm
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 256 times
Contact:

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by rncbc »

out of popcorn error: as once said on reddit, try to make pipewire perform as solid-gold as jack to, say, 128/48000, and maybe we'll talk :)
at the time of this writing, it is dang unreliable at that; but it's The future ntl. check yours truly qpwgraph for a dang old qjackctl replacement ;)
User avatar
GMaq
Established Member
Posts: 2774
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:42 pm
Has thanked: 520 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by GMaq »

alextee wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:28 pm I have been using PipeWire only for many months (maybe close to a year now?) and everything just works nicely (besides a critical bug in the JACK implementation that I reported and has been fixed). I think Fedora already switched to it too, and a lot of the people I talk to already use it so I'm already pretty weirded out by the fact that there are still people wanting to use plain ALSA without JACK or PipeWire or even PulseAudio :lol:

For most desktop users I'd say PipeWire is ready to go but it might need some more stability if you are doing live performances or something like that with it. I wonder when Debian will switch to it
Well it definitely won't be the default in Debian until the next Stable release (so 12) whenever that is.. That's fine with me I like things to be well out of beta before they are in a Stable or LTS platform. Hopefully @rncbc will have qpwgraph in ship shape and picked up by Debian by then too. In the meantime in my case I don't really think too much about the Audio Server for day to day stuff it all works smoothly and I can pick what I want depending on what I'm using... Now... off to get better acquainted with Zrythm.. :wink:
User avatar
rncbc
Established Member
Posts: 1060
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:20 pm
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 256 times
Contact:

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by rncbc »

@GMaq et al. latest qpwgraph v0.2.4 is already on debian "unstable" though--you know what that means, i guess ;)
User avatar
milkii
Established Member
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:08 am
Location: Edinburgh
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 91 times
Contact:

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by milkii »

Be. wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:14 pm Technical nitpick:
Yeah, I've been dumbing it down so much that I forgot to go back to the right terminology

they/them ta / libreav.org / wiki.thingsandstuff.org/Audio and related pages / gh

alextee
Established Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:22 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by alextee »

rncbc wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:39 pm check yours truly qpwgraph for a dang old qjackctl replacement ;)
Oh neat I've been using Qjackctl all this time. time to switch
tseaver
Established Member
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:07 am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 98 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by tseaver »

I'm puzzled by those who say that Linux DAWs should just prefer / require ALSA, in an environment where the best possible Linux software-emulated guitar pedal-amp chain **cannot** be replaced by one or more DAW plugins: the standalone Guitarix app, functioning as a JACK source, is infinitely more configurable / customizable than the equivalent mess of chained LV2 plugins. That leaves aside all the other possible JACK-centric usecases.

Those whose needs do not extend beyond what is already supported by in-DAW plugins aren't really in a good place to throw stones at the houses of users who have (for years now) relied on the routing capabilities of Jack.

FWIW: as a long-time developer / maintainer of (over-engineered) "pluggable" frameworks, I can certainly "feel the pain" of those having to support multiple back-ends.
Ubuntu, Mixbus32C; acoustic blues / country / jazz
Kott
Established Member
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Vladivostok
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 122 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by Kott »

tseaver wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:42 am Those whose needs do not extend beyond what is already supported by in-DAW plugins aren't really in a good place to throw stones at the houses of users who have (for years now) relied on the routing capabilities of Jack.
Who throws stones? Maybe you doing it to users that just don't want bound with Jack only?
Point is not that Jack is bad or no one need it. Point that users (me for example) want to use ALSA backend.
If it's hard to implement, then just say that, but not "You need no ALSA, Dixi".
User avatar
GMaq
Established Member
Posts: 2774
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:42 pm
Has thanked: 520 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Z-curious... anybody using Zrythm for actual production?

Post by GMaq »

tseaver wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:42 am I'm puzzled by those who say that Linux DAWs should just prefer / require ALSA, in an environment where the best possible Linux software-emulated guitar pedal-amp chain **cannot** be replaced by one or more DAW plugins: the standalone Guitarix app, functioning as a JACK source, is infinitely more configurable / customizable than the equivalent mess of chained LV2 plugins. That leaves aside all the other possible JACK-centric usecases.

Those whose needs do not extend beyond what is already supported by in-DAW plugins aren't really in a good place to throw stones at the houses of users who have (for years now) relied on the routing capabilities of Jack.

FWIW: as a long-time developer / maintainer of (over-engineered) "pluggable" frameworks, I can certainly "feel the pain" of those having to support multiple back-ends.
Literally nobody said that, I'll assume you're talking to me for the most part since I presented the 'why not ALSA' question..

I was interested in Zrythm... I tried it and it presented me with an ALSA backend option which I'm used to using with Ardour and it locked the program... The developer @alextee said (paraphrased) I am having difficulty getting the ALSA backend working if you want to do Pro Audio on Linux you should use JACK... I said but the other Pro Audio apps I've tried don't require JACK and connect to ALSA... Then I explained in some detail why JACK may not be the only Server to be used in a Pro Audio context any longer and how that view is changing and how other DAW products are handling Audio i/o.

I never said JACK was inferior or that JACK should be discontinued or that DAWs should solely support ALSA or that routing DAWs in whatever way you prefer should be changed in any way. @Kott basically said nothing except that he also likes ALSA support.. Every post of mine here takes into consideration that (JACK specifically) is important for other DAWs and alternate Routing workflows and that it is generally a great thing about Linux Audio. That doesn't change the fact that some Pro DAWs no longer need it.

To be honest I'm baffled by the pushback about it, nobody said anything about eliminating any of them or actually adding a feature.. Zrythm came to me with an ALSA backend to select already! As far as frameworks and backends ALSA is the core and the others are added on top as others explained it's making ALSA direct friendly requires writing an intermediate API that is already similar to what JACK is doing but with that said I don't think that ALSA support is exactly like adding a 'new' backend either.
Post Reply