System Upgrade advice needed

[sonicolonic]

So, barring one final test with my older ice1712 based pci soundcard on my dad's newer core duo msi system, I'm pretty much ready to start planning a complete upgrade, computer and interface. I'm having trouble finding a starting point, so here are some guidelines. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm using 64Studio with a handful of hard drives (ide/sata), already have KRK vxt4 powered monitors, would like to be able to run a dual display. I've got cases, power supplies, fans, so I'm looking for a solid mb/cpu/ram combo. Prefer AMD ethics over Intel performance. I'll be mixing in the box.

At this point, I don't have a preference between PCI or FW interface. PCI seems more developed/supported in Linux but FW seems more versatile. If I could find the right FW system that worked, I would someday move up to a mobile DAW laptop. I have an older Allen and Heath SR-12 plus 12 channel mixer, main outs, mono out, 4 busses (2 pre, 2 post, but that's hackable), inserts on every channel used as outs to the interface, and have been planning on using this as my main source of pres/routing. I also have a couple of Yamaha channel strips I bought a couple of years ago to hack down into pres just for options.

Multiple monitoring outs, headphone outs, some midi (I don't need a ton) or digital options would be cool. I'm mainly recording myself or live/full bands, and have very little use for digital connections right now. Options are cool to have for upgradability as long as they don't outweigh the cost vs. usefulness consideration. 8-12+ analog line inputs would be awesome @ 24/96, with some versatile monitoring options is what I'm looking for, although, the more inputs/pres the interface has, the more I could use the mixer for monitor routing. That would allow me to use the full board and still add some different pres into the mix. The next biggest thing would be the ability to daisy-chain or expand. That's really all I'm looking for. A solid, line input laden, expandable interface with quality converters and monitoring options.

Obviously, I'm looking for an interface that will actually work with a newer Linux system. I had some luck with the ice1712 based soundcard on an older mb, but it couldn't handle the expansion unit and ultimately the system died, and I haven't had any luck with this newer set-up and am just about sick of not being able to record how I want to.

Can anyone point me in the right direction? I would be truly grateful as this home recording studio on a shoestring budget is taking about 10 years longer to get started than I had hoped. Thanks in advance.

~mumbles

[sonicolonic]

Budget...

I would like to spend $600-1000 between the core system and the interface. I don't mind used gear, moreso for the interface than the computer, so we could push that theoretical upper limit a bit to compensate for value buys.

~mumbles

[sonicolonic]

Ok, I did some homework.

Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 - OR- Presonus FP10

I like the dual headphones, rear connections, Linux support, a bit more gain, and expanadbility of the FS but things like only being able to set standalone mode and digital routing for standalone mode via software, and other features being only software accessable makes me wonder how this translates to Linux.

The FP10 seems to be more popular but less supported though still functional. The FP10 seems more ready for standalone operation which would be nice, but less versatile when it comes to monitoring.

I'm leaning towards the Saffire because of options, layout and support. I could snag a couple of these and be in pretty good shape for what I'm doing. Anyone want to try to sway me otherwise? If the Saffire offered more control in standalone mode it would be a no-brainer, but the fact that it'll probably becoming from a desktop setting to a live situation, and that I'll have a mixer too makes me a bit more comfortable with the unit.

Thanks for reading my long-winded and vague posts.

~mumbles

[spm_gl]

If you want to add more than one interface, I'd stay away from FW interfaces. Most computers only have a single FW bus.
If you want really good linux support and a very good mixer, buy an RME Multiface with ExpressCard.

[sonicolonic]

This is the first time I'd considered RME out of sheer ignorance. The gear is pretty attractive. Trading off pre-amps for solid hardware performance and Linux support. A bigger initial investment, but I've already spent more than I expected on pre's between the mixer and the channel strips project, so there's some balance there.

Since you seem to know a bit about RME, I've got some questions about expandability... I read that there's a trick to adding a second Multiface without the PCI card, but obviously a PCI card per Multiface is ideal. How practical is this trick in the real world? I also read that the RME interface is kinda designed to be used with external convertors. How do the stock convertors stand up against other comparable options? Keep in mind I'm basically a beginner with long-term goals. I like that I can buy an expresscard and use the same interface if/when I get a laptop. My last concern is adding more inputs or preamps. Let's say I'm using all 12 channels from my mixer, and need a few more, OR, I want to downsize my rig to a single rack unit and a laptop. I don't know squat about ADAT, but it seems like either more preamps and a convertor or preamp/convertor combo (which it seems like RME has?) would do the trick... somehow.... via ADAT? I have no idea... I'm not quite familiar with signal flow at this level yet as I got into recording about 10 years ago, and haven't be able to kept up with it. Any explanation would be excellent.

One last question. Is there any significant difference between the RME Multiface and the rebranded Nuendo interface?

Thanks for your help.

~mumbles

[spm_gl]

I don't know of any trick using a second multiface on one pci. But the pci cards are not really a major cost factor, you can get them used rather cheap. The ExpressCard is pretty expensive. Avoid the Cardbus (I have one), because you won't find a notebook with that interface anymore.
You can always hook an adat canverter to the adat ports, but note that adat only supports 48kHz, unless you use smux, but then you get only 4 channels at 96.
The converters in the Multiface (I have the old version) are pretty good. Apparently those in the MF2 are better.
RME has also relased a new USB interface, might be a good alternative to their FW ones, seeing that FW is already dying out.
No clue on the Nuendo relabelled thing, but I'd guess it to be a standard Multiface.

[sonicolonic]

I'm not seeing many used PCI cards out there, but I'll keep looking.

Ok, so here's my long-term build plan. Snag a Multiface and a PCI card, use the mixer and outboard pres in the studio until I need more inputs, at which point I snag an 8-channel mic pre with ADAT (like the octamic, for example). Then, when I build a mobile rig, all I would need is the ExpressCard but would be able to get 8 line and 8 pres on the road, and leave the mixer at home. Correct? Seems like that setup would be able to record either pre or post the house P.A. if recording a live show. Either drop the rig in front of the house mixer and run all of the line outs parallel to the recording, or bus/direct out everything from the board into the 16 channels.

My only concern is preamps when building the mobile rig, because I'd end up hauling the Multiface along just for the computer interface but really only need maybe 3 line inputs in a live rig (bass, stereo keys). So, an interface with 8 pres to start, whether or not I use them at first, would be ideal as it'll save me space, time, and money when taking it on the road. Ok... taking a step back. If I finish building these Yamaha channel strip mic pres or invest in some RNPs then it should work out fine. 8-channels via Octamic, adat into the Multiface, plus 2-4 outboard pres. If I can't make that work, there's something wrong with me. By the time I'm needing a laptop and more pres, I'll probably be looking for nicer pres anyways.

Ok, I think I'm wrapping my head around this, visualizing a desktop and mixer based DAW home project studio, and a laptop based mobile rig, with the same rack system powering both, and seperate cards for each computer. OR, a single dedicated rackmounted DAW. I like that. Makes the computer build more flexible and affordable as well, but then there's hauling around peripherals. As I exceed my price range, the purchases become more crtitical for long-term usefulness.

So, there's no 8 pre based version of the Multiface/Hammerfall? Ah well... I like that it offers options and not limits like other interfaces.

Oh man... somebody's cooking and I haven't eaten yet today... time to take care of business. Thanks for the info. Hopefully I can pick up a second job to help this project studio get off the ground.

~mumbles

[toddz]

Just wanted to say that I'm enjoying this thread as I'm currently considering a build out myself. Nice to see your thought process...

I'm wondering if there are any other good options out there to investigate regarding interfaces - anyone?

Todd

[sonicolonic]

Glad to hear someone is enjoying this. I know I'm kinda long-winded and have enough information to be dangerous. I really like being able to engage in a dialog and sometimes forums are a bit slow for my racing mindset. I just found this regarding my mb and the Multiface...

http://www.rme-audio.de/english/techinf ... aks_01.htm

Makes me slightly concerned... I don't want to be hacking this board to pieces just to do some fancy overclocking. If this system can handle it stock, I'll use it for tracking. If not, I'll resort to picking up a new rig... again. I need to remind myself that either this recording DAW needs to be portable, and transported between studio space and my apt, or I need a second computer, one for tracking and one for mixing. Hopefully my old audio interface will be able to handle the mixing, and then I'll still probably buy an external hard drive.

I know this studio is going to be awesome someday... it's a bit of a hillclimb to get to the starting line though.

~mumbles

[spm_gl]

In our studio, we use only RME cards. A 9652, a 9652HDSP (no real difference) and a Multiface. The 9652's go into external converters and the digital mixer, respectively. The Multiface does the analog i/o's for mastering inserts. We only have the cardbus card though, for the last mobile recording we rented a notebook. Need to buy the expresscard soon. Our "normal" mobile rig is a Fostex 2424LV, but for smaller recordings, it's too much to carry around.
In the last 4 years, I have never had a problem with RME hardware, neither under Linux nor Windows.

[sonicolonic]

That sounds like a ringing endorsement to me. I checked out your site. Nice studio you have there. Here's the result of my crash course in ADAT and the RME line of products.

So, the Multiface are just some converters that live in a breakout box. The PCI card is the actual interface. To bypass the converters would be to bypass the analog inputs on the Multiface. I understand it has ADAT inputs, so you could expand on this and add more channels and/or use additional better converters, but then you're only using the Multiface for the ADAT/pci interface. If one reaches that point where the stock converters are the weak link then the Multiface(s) itself is(are) the weak link(s). Ultimately a rig like yours, external converters and tons of ADAT on the INTERFACE is how you upgrade a multi-Multiface rig. As long as I'm using the analog ins on the Multiface, I'm using it's converters.

The Digiface on the other hand allows you to add more digital I/O to the INTERFACE but is not in and of itself a converter. Ok. So, adding a Digiface to a Multiface rig means you can rack up another 12-24 channels in conjuction with external converters, with or without attached pres. Actually, the Digiface and external converters would be the upgrade I'm talking about, huh? Sooooo....

::gears working:: Same interface... same card... gang 3 Digifaces with 3 Hammerfall cards, round up something like..... hahaha.... an absurd number of really expensive converters... do people ever do this? I mean, is this what people mean when they talk about entry-level pro rigs? Cause that's what it sounds like to me.

This post was going to be twice as long but in the process of explaining my questions I found the answer, surprise surprise, RME has an answer. I just did it again. If you were really needing or planning on running 72 i/o, and actually had that number of pres available and were thinking about spending that much money on that many converters, you'd probably be in the market for MADI interfaces and MADI converters.

It's all coming together. Once the MF is maxed out for i/o, or converters become the weak link, the wise thing to do would be to sell the Multifaces snag a Digiface and use that cash to start buying bigger better converters. Eventually, by necessity, the interface will need to be upgraded. By that point there's probably a serious console or control surface in the mix (no pun intended) to consider, depending on where your pre's live.

I love how the RME product lines let you leap-frog/slingshot from one level to the next.

One final actual question... what would I do with all of the ADAT outs that I don't know what to do with? Build a bunch of headphone mixes for recording full bands live seems like one solution, but maybe slightly overkill. Actually, the Multiface would be good for that I think, after switching to a Digiface rig. Run a dedicated hard disk MTR as back-up and mixdown? I don't have any outboard processor's yet, but that won't last forever.

I know this is all hypothetical, but this is how serious I am about making smart purchases. I hardly ever get rid of any gear, and when I do I usually regret it, so it's gotta be something that makes sense now and also 10 years down the road. Thanks for reading.

~mumbles

[autostatic]

If you want to add more than one interface, I'd stay away from FW interfaces. Most computers only have a single FW bus.

My bandmate has two Focusrite Saffire Pro 10's, works well for him. I think he linked them via SPDIF.

[sonicolonic]

Here's the noob in me... I don't get SPDIF, or it's applications really. I did a little searching but didn't find much. It keeps things in the digital domain, but it doesn't seem like it's useful for linking interfaces (unless the SPDIF is a stereo output of all channels). Correct me if I'm wrong. Good to have with an expensive cd burner, but I'm not sure what else.

I'm pretty set on the RME gear, just need to see if I have the cash this month, or wait til I get my tax refund.

~mumbles

[toddz]

RME definitely sounds like the right choice technically - my issue is budget. By the looks of it, the RME solution will cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500 CAD - (HDSP/Multiface II). Is there a cheaper way to go?

Else, for something more in the $300-$700 range, it appears firewire might be cheapest (Edirol FA66 or the Focusrite SapphirePRO24 or PRO40) although these options bring up more questions for me.

First, I'd rather stay with a internal solution (PCI/PCIe) if possible, but http://www.linuxstudiopro.com/ only really lists the RME, the Echo and the M-Audio... The M-Audio's sound nice, but from other posts on this board, I'm wary of the Linux support. I haven't heard anything about the Echo's so can't really form an opinion - and the RME as mentioned are a little pricey.

So, if I go with a Firewire, anyone have reviews of the Edirol line?? Are the Focusrite SapphirePRO24/PRO40 supported? (they aren't specifically listed on ffado...) Are there better options?

[Havoc]

Here's the noob in me... I don't get SPDIF, or it's applications really. I did a little searching but didn't find much. It keeps things in the digital domain, but it doesn't seem like it's useful for linking interfaces

SPdif is stereo only. I use it a lot for DAT-to-pc transcription so I can stay in the digital domain. Otherwise it is used to link cd/dat/pc to a stereo dac that feeds a normal stereo system (like for listening to your work on a "reference" system). I think that in the case above, the spdif is used to syncronise both interfaces. Find it a bit strange myself, but if they don't have any wordclock in and out it might work. But I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

Professional version is AES3 or AES/EBU or IEC 60958.