transposing chords

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D-Tuned
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transposing chords

Post by D-Tuned »

If I were to transpose a song from G to C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpvTaWo6EdA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlRsfL7K5bo

how should I approach the problem of chords?

Reduce them all to roman numerals and then
substitute the same roman numerals applicable in C?

Strictly speaking I'm only after the exercise as such,
but would this transposition make any sense if the
objective were to cater to a lower vocal range?
What is the order of keys by vocal range, is it the
same suggested by the position of the first scale
note on the piano?

Thanks
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Re: transposing chords

Post by raboof »

D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:46 am how should I approach the problem of chords?

Reduce them all to roman numerals and then
substitute the same roman numerals applicable in C?
Compared to what? This is a fine approach, but other approaches (like transposing each note individually) should have an identical effect:

For example a A major chord (A C E): using your approach, this would be step II. Step II of C is D, so this would translate to a D major chord (D F A).

Alternatively, transposing each of the notes A C and E upwards by a perfect fourth, you get D F and A, so it comes down to the same thing. This keeps applying when there's more complicated chords or accidentals in play.
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:46 am would this transposition make any sense if the
objective were to cater to a lower vocal range?
Yes
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:46 am What is the order of keys by vocal range, is it the
same suggested by the position of the first scale
note on the piano?
Yes - well, more precisely, the pitch, but that comes down to the same thing in practice here I'd say?
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Re: transposing chords

Post by nils »

Do you want to quickly transpose yourself, as a human or do you want to do the 100% correct, but long method (which is suitable for computer programs)?

Yourself: Forget everything about half-tones or "black keys". The tonal system consists of "stem notes" as a basis: c d e f g a b/h . A third is always three steps (including the first one) and a fourth is always 4. Either up/right or down/left in that order.
c e g one step up will be: d f a. Now adjust by ear if all the chord sounds the same. Which in this case doesn't because f must be f-sharp/fis.
Even a Db Major chord (Db F Ab) a major third up is to convert everything to stem notes first: <Db F Ab> to <D F A> to <F A C>. Check if Db -> D is really a major third (it is). Finally adjust by ear if that is the sound you want (it already is)

Middle Way: Experience musicians and theoreticians don't do math in their head. We just already know every musical interval from any note to any other. f# a# c# a major-sixth up is each individual note a sixth up.

Correct but tedious: The only real underlying system in notes (and notation) are not steps or semi steps but fifths. There is only one order of perfect fifths: [...] Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# etc.
Each musical interval is exactly the same steps left/right along that order. A fifth is one step right, a fourth is one step left, a major third is 4 steps to the right, a minor third is 3 steps to the left.
This system never fails, there is no ambiguity. But you need to learn it.
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Re: transposing chords

Post by merlyn »

A reliable way of doing this is to write out the two keys one below the other :

Code: Select all

G A B C D E F# 
C D E F G A B
Look up the chord in the top row, then read off its transposition in the bottom row.
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Re: transposing chords

Post by D-Tuned »

nils wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:39 pm Do you want to quickly transpose yourself, as a human or do you want to do the 100% correct, but long method (which is suitable for computer programs)?

Yourself: Forget everything about half-tones or "black keys". The tonal system consists of "stem notes" as a basis: c d e f g a b/h . A third is always three steps (including the first one) and a fourth is always 4. Either up/right or down/left in that order.
c e g one step up will be: d f a. Now adjust by ear if all the chord sounds the same. Which in this case doesn't because f must be f-sharp/fis.
Even a Db Major chord (Db F Ab) a major third up is to convert everything to stem notes first: <Db F Ab> to <D F A> to <F A C>. Check if Db -> D is really a major third (it is). Finally adjust by ear if that is the sound you want (it already is)

Middle Way: Experience musicians and theoreticians don't do math in their head. We just already know every musical interval from any note to any other. f# a# c# a major-sixth up is each individual note a sixth up.

Correct but tedious: The only real underlying system in notes (and notation) are not steps or semi steps but fifths. There is only one order of perfect fifths: [...] Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# etc.
Each musical interval is exactly the same steps left/right along that order. A fifth is one step right, a fourth is one step left, a major third is 4 steps to the right, a minor third is 3 steps to the left.
This system never fails, there is no ambiguity. But you need to learn it.
Generally 'correct' with no grey areas is what I prefer and THAT mostly because I want to understand what I'm trying to learn. Tedious has never scared me. I'll surely come back to this "order of 5ths" but for starters what do you mean by 'stem notes', notes with no accidentals?
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Re: transposing chords

Post by D-Tuned »

raboof wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:11 pm
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:46 am how should I approach the problem of chords?

Reduce them all to roman numerals and then
substitute the same roman numerals applicable in C?
Compared to what? This is a fine approach, but other approaches (like transposing each note individually) should have an identical effect:

For example a A major chord (A C E): using your approach, this would be step II. Step II of C is D, so this would translate to a D major chord (D F A).

Alternatively, transposing each of the notes A C and E upwards by a perfect fourth, you get D F and A, so it comes down to the same thing. This keeps applying when there's more complicated chords or accidentals in play.
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:46 am would this transposition make any sense if the
objective were to cater to a lower vocal range?
Yes
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:46 am What is the order of keys by vocal range, is it the
same suggested by the position of the first scale
note on the piano?
Yes - well, more precisely, the pitch, but that comes down to the same thing in practice here I'd say?

Yes pitch. Say I start a major scale on a C on a keyboard (the guitar neck being a poor linear example). The next (to the right i.e. UP) major scale would be a D and in this case it would be a touch higher as a scale than C because it begins to the right. But I could just as well start that D scale an octave lower and I'd still be doing a major D scale. I don't know how I come across with this confusion, how do I tell from just hearing someone say "play this in key-X" if that's lower or higher as a pitch-range compared to another?
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Re: transposing chords

Post by raboof »

D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:13 pm
raboof wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:11 pm
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:46 am What is the order of keys by vocal range, is it the
same suggested by the position of the first scale
note on the piano?
Yes - well, more precisely, the pitch, but that comes down to the same thing in practice here I'd say?

Yes pitch. Say I start a major scale on a C on a keyboard (the guitar neck being a poor linear example). The next (to the right i.e. UP) major scale would be a D and in this case it would be a touch higher as a scale than C because it begins to the right.
You could make an even smaller step and move to C# or Db, though those are much less 'convenient' :)
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:13 pm But I could just as well start that D scale an octave lower and I'd still be doing a major D scale.
That's right: note names like 'D' only represent pitch 'modulo the octave'.
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:13 pm I don't know how I come across with this confusion, how do I tell from just hearing someone say "play this in key-X" if that's lower or higher as a pitch-range compared to another?
This likely doesn't make a difference in practice:

* an octave is a pretty big interval, so often it is clear "from context" which octave is meant and/or works best for the range of the instrument
* when you play a piece in D in any octave, the singer is free to choose in which octave to add their contribution as long as it's also in D: it will sound harmonious since octaves are so closely related.

in other words: "in which octave" to play the notes from your chord is largely a matter of taste. Of course it will sound different so you will have a preference, but from a harmony perspective there is freedom there.

When talking about chords there is also this freedom: playing a "D major chord" does not necessarily mean playing "D F# A D" in that order, it just means you will use the notes 'D' 'F#' and 'A' from various octaves - this is called making "inversions" of the chord that "work well" for that instrument. For example guitar players will do this all the time because it can be very inconvenient to "skip" a string when it doesn't have the note you're looking for, often each string will have *one* of the notes from the chord so you'd play that.
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Re: transposing chords

Post by D-Tuned »

raboof wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:18 am
D-Tuned wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:13 pm
raboof wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:11 pm
Yes - well, more precisely, the pitch, but that comes down to the same thing in practice here I'd say?
Yes pitch. Say I start a major scale on a C on a keyboard (the guitar neck being a poor linear example). The next (to the right i.e. UP) major scale would be a D and in this case it would be a touch higher as a scale than C because it begins to the right.
You could make an even smaller step and move to C# or Db, though those are much less 'convenient' :)
... an octave is a pretty big interval
Ok, I should not have mixed the octave into it. I'm trying to nail down the *pitch order* of the keys. I read somewhere that the reason for keys was to adjust to the vocal range of singers. Maybe there's another reason, I only know of this one.

C4 or middle C may or may not be the default C-Major-Key starting point but let's assume that it is. Let's say I want to play the song in C-Major but the singer says "I need a higher key". I hate presuming things but I would presume that B-Major would be the highest key that I could offer this singer i.e. the pitch of major keys starts with C and rises to B with F-Major and G-Major being the midpoint range. This is what I want to be sure of before going further.

THEN and IF we get there, what's the difference between B-Major above and C-Major played an octave higher? Is a singer's vocal range so narrow that it needs to be acommodated in half-step or full step increments? I only sang a few times in my childhood and have no idea.
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Re: transposing chords

Post by D-Tuned »

nils wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:39 pm ...
Correct but tedious: The only real underlying system in notes (and notation) are not steps or semi steps but fifths. There is only one order of perfect fifths: [...] Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# etc.
Each musical interval is exactly the same steps left/right along that order. A fifth is one step right, a fourth is one step left, a major third is 4 steps to the right, a minor third is 3 steps to the left.
This system never fails, there is no ambiguity. But you need to learn it.
This looks very much like the major keys on the outside rim of the circle of 5ths. I'll have to soak up its implications but this is the kind of clue I like to cheat with. It reminds me of a small aide-memoire I once scribed into the middle area of the circle

362
514

and then forgot what it meant! It came back after a while and the arabic numbers stand for roman numerals. If I look at the circle from the outside at say A major, then the riddle tells me that I is in front of me, the V is on my left, the IV on my right, the iii inside on my left, the vi inside facing me and the ii inside on my right. It's apples and oranges but the idea is similar.

But how would I use your list to transpose chords? Can you give an example?

Thanks
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Re: transposing chords

Post by Loki Harfagr »

D-Tuned wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:01 am
nils wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:39 pm ...
Correct but tedious: The only real underlying system in notes (and notation) are not steps or semi steps but fifths. There is only one order of perfect fifths: [...] Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# etc.
Each musical interval is exactly the same steps left/right along that order. A fifth is one step right, a fourth is one step left, a major third is 4 steps to the right, a minor third is 3 steps to the left.
This system never fails, there is no ambiguity. But you need to learn it.
...
But how would I use your list to transpose chords? Can you give an example?

Thanks
You can test it and learn it (or teach it) directly in using a transpositing harmonic instrument like a guitar.
Short example, in the list above look at that part listing (B) E A D G (or mirrors G D A E (B) ) and think about it.
Quick experiment, think about "barrés" or "capo" you might have seen, quickly play the chords G D Em, then find some way to imagine they're C G Am.
Open a beer (or fetch some shrooms) and prepare to have a fun and long life :)
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Re: transposing chords

Post by D-Tuned »

Loki Harfagr wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:02 am
D-Tuned wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:01 am
nils wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:39 pm ...
Correct but tedious: The only real underlying system in notes (and notation) are not steps or semi steps but fifths. There is only one order of perfect fifths: [...] Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# etc.
Each musical interval is exactly the same steps left/right along that order. A fifth is one step right, a fourth is one step left, a major third is 4 steps to the right, a minor third is 3 steps to the left.
This system never fails, there is no ambiguity. But you need to learn it.
...
But how would I use your list to transpose chords? Can you give an example?

Thanks
You can test it and learn it (or teach it) directly in using a transpositing harmonic instrument like a guitar.
Short example, in the list above look at that part listing (B) E A D G (or mirrors G D A E (B) ) and think about it.
Quick experiment, think about "barrés" or "capo" you might have seen, quickly play the chords G D Em, then find some way to imagine they're C G Am.
Open a beer (or fetch some shrooms) and prepare to have a fun and long life :)

What's the difference between (B)EADG and BEADG? I note that
EADG is the 4 low strings of standard EADGBE tuning, each of ADG
being the 4th of and (5 frets or half steps) above the respective EAD
string.

Using barré chords and my DGCFAD tuning G-D-Em and C-G-Am
are the I-V-vi progressions in G and C major
GDEm.png
GDEm.png (11.71 KiB) Viewed 13038 times
CGAm.png
CGAm.png (11.97 KiB) Viewed 13038 times

each of these chords is also 5 frets (or half-steps) higher,
consistent with C being 1 list-step to the left of G (in nils list),
again pointing to a 4th. I'm going to presume here
(NEVER a good idea) that the circle of 5ths is the circle of
4ths counterclockwise. Am I to conclude that to transpose
a chord from G to C I need to move every note in the chord
up a 4th or 5 frets? If so, fine, how does that tell me how to
transpose from D to F#, by moving every note in the chord
up 95 frets, or down 28?

Just copying the I-V-vi prog over to F# would seem to be
less entertaining :-)
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Re: transposing chords

Post by raboof »

D-Tuned wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:41 am C4 or middle C may or may not be the default C-Major-Key starting point but let's assume that it is. Let's say I want to play the song in C-Major but the singer says "I need a higher key". I hate presuming things but I would presume that B-Major would be the highest key that I could offer this singer i.e. the pitch of major keys starts with C and rises to B with F-Major and G-Major being the midpoint range. This is what I want to be sure of before going further.
Taken literally, there is no such thing as a "higher key": you can play/sing *any* C over a C major key and *any* D over a D major key, so the D major is not really "higher" than C major.

When you're playing in C and someone says "I need a higher key", I would interpret that as that they'd want to use a key roughly between C and the next G: otherwise, they would have likely taken their reference point an octave higher and ask for "a lower key". Try it out and see what works ;)
D-Tuned wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:41 am Is a singer's vocal range so narrow that it needs to be accommodated in half-step or full step increments? I only sang a few times in my childhood and have no idea.
Yes, I think small intervals can already make a big difference. It's not just about which pitches a singer can reproduce, but the timbre and ease of singing also varies across the interval, which can also be a reason for shifting it a bit to better fit the combination of the singer and the desired feel of the piece.

To get a better intuition for this it could be interesting to use pitch shifting software (audacity has an 'Effect -> Change pitch') and use it on a song you know well.
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Re: transposing chords

Post by Loki Harfagr »

What's the difference between (B)EADG and BEADG?
the (B) was a subliminal to think about that B bass string you can't see when you're on the first low E string :)
it actually was put to suggest thinking about how changing of low string transposed the stuff, seems you found out the "capo" (change of "barré") could help transposing but you missed the base string mod.
for instance:

Code: Select all

|---------
|---------
|---------
|-0--0-2--
|-2--0-2--
|-3--2-3--


|---------
|---------
|-0--0-2--
|-2--0-2--
|-3--2-3--
|---------


|---------
|---------
|---------
|-5--5-0-2
|-7--5-2-3
|-8--7-3-5

|---------
|---------
|-5--5-0-2
|-7--5-2-3
|-8--7-3-5
|---------

I'm going to presume here
(NEVER a good idea) that the circle of 5ths is the circle of
4ths counterclockwise.
Quite funny and tedious fact it is now mosttly named and used as "circle of fifths" because too many people didn't understand or grab correctly the original "circle of fourths" :D
Am I to conclude that to transpose
a chord from G to C I need to move every note in the chord
up a 4th or 5 frets? If so, fine, how does that tell me how to
transpose from D to F#, by moving every note in the chord
up 95 frets, or down 28?
The idea is to never conclude (unless you're pretty certain that you're writing the end of the coda) then one method is as you found out to "slide" the "barré", alternatively use some inversions (not represented above) or "change the base" (e-g as jumping strings), hence for your question about D to F#, since that is a major third == 4 semitones if your instruments is fretted on the semitone basis then slide up 4 frets, alternatively jump one string down and slide down 3 frets or jump one string up and slide down one fret

some major thirds examples:

Code: Select all

|---------7-
|-------7-8-
|-----4-7---
|---4-5-----
|-2-5-------
|-3---------
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Re: transposing chords

Post by D-Tuned »

Loki Harfagr wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:54 pm
Quite funny and tedious fact it is now mosttly named and used as "circle of fifths" because too many people didn't understand or grab correctly the original "circle of fourths" :D

....or "change the base" (e-g as jumping strings), hence for your question about D to F#, since that is a major third == 4 semitones if your instruments is fretted on the semitone basis then slide up 4 frets, alternatively jump one string down and slide down 3 frets or jump one string up and slide down one fret

some major thirds examples:

Code: Select all

|---------7-
|-------7-8-
|-----4-7---
|---4-5-----
|-2-5-------
|-3---------
I don't ask too much from life, so long as I learn something I try to hang around. Just last night after posting I had one of those unresolved-dilemma dreams in which I was continuously trying to figure out how many frets to take past the nut on the way down-strings. The above are worthwhile rewards, the string-jumping bit I'll have to read maybe few more times. :mrgreen:
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Re: transposing chords

Post by D-Tuned »

D-Tuned wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:58 am Am I to conclude that to transpose
a chord from G to C I need to move every note in the chord
up a 4th or 5 frets? If so, fine, how does that tell me how to
transpose from D to F#, by moving every note in the chord
up 95 frets, or down 28?
Idiot, I was completely in the weeds with this one thinking that nils' line
Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# C# G# D#

meant that to go from D to F# one had to do D-A-E-B-F# or 4 moves
of one 5th interval each time ...whereas, the list just means that from
any note

- a fifth is one step right
- a fourth is one step left
- a major third is 4 steps to the right
- a minor third is 3 steps to the left

like JUST ONCE foe each!

I guess I should be ashamed but nothing could be farther from the truth
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