Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

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D-Tuned
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Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by D-Tuned »

Is a triad or and inversion necessarily closed-voiced?

If so, then how is the opposite (open-voiced version) distinguished in the name or in the symbols?



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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by d.healey »

A C major chord has a C an E and a G, it doesn't matter what octave they are in or what inversion, if it has those three notes only it's a C major triad.
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by D-Tuned »

d.healey wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:13 pm A C major chord has a C an E and a G, it doesn't matter what octave they are in or what inversion, if it has those three notes only it's a C major triad.
Thanks, technically you clarified the issue. But from the point of view that whatever sounds different should have a different name and notation more seems to be needed. A C/E inversion and a C/D (C on bass D) sound different if strummed slowly or if the E or D be an octave lower. Notation takes care of the difference on the staff, I was poking at whatever naming there might exist this side of notation without having to add "open-voiced".
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by d.healey »

Wouldn't the notation show the openess of the voicing anyway?
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by D-Tuned »

d.healey wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:55 am Wouldn't the notation show the openess of the voicing anyway?
In the case of the guitar the staff and the diagram (tabs for those
who use them) would but nothing else as far as I know.
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by d.healey »

D-Tuned wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:23 am but nothing else as far as I know.
What else are you thinking of? Lead sheets?
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by D-Tuned »

Supplementary question:

The C/D reveals an extra bass note, the same format is used to id an inversion. My question is why are inversions classified on the basis of which interval swings to the bottom where they make less difference than at the top? I think this is true regardless if a bass is added but even more so if yes. Does this have something to do with how a keyboard player aims to hit the mark? The defining move seems to be the one that moves to the top of the triad or even to the top of a wider chord so I would have a tendency to id on THAT basis as 1st inversion as a root moving to the top and 2nd as the 3rd moving there.
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by merlyn »

D-Tuned wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:02 pm Supplementary question:
My question is why are inversions classified on the basis of which interval swings to the bottom where they make less difference than at the top?
I said that in an earlier post. The principle does assume there's a bassline. Chords are in the middle. The melody is at the top, the bassline is at the bottom and the chords are in the middle. By focusing on the top note of chords we create a melody, or counter melody.

The notes to the right of the slash are telling us the bassline, and inversions are used to create specific voice leading in the bass e.g take

| G / / / | D / / / | Em / / / |

We can tell the bass player to go to Em via F# like this :

| G / / / | D/F# / / / | Em / / / |

which you've probably heard a thousand times :)
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by D-Tuned »

d.healey wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:38 am
D-Tuned wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:23 am but nothing else as far as I know.
What else are you thinking of? Lead sheets?
I'm looking to store diagram files with file names that tell
everything about a chord even without a diagram.
If there already were some customary form of including the
open or closed voicing in the name of the chord I would just
copy that or cook something similar. Adding "open-voice"
would more than double the file-name length so it's not the
answer. I can come up with some symbol but don't wanna
be original if some usable convention already exists.
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by d.healey »

D-Tuned wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:58 am
d.healey wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:38 am
D-Tuned wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:23 am but nothing else as far as I know.
What else are you thinking of? Lead sheets?
I'm looking to store diagram files with file names that tell
everything about a chord even without a diagram.
If there already were some customary form of including the
open or closed voicing in the name of the chord I would just
copy that or cook something similar. Adding "open-voice"
would more than double the file-name length so it's not the
answer. I can come up with some symbol but don't wanna
be original if some usable convention already exists.
There are multiple open and closed voicings for each chord in each inversion, so I think you have a difficult task. What about using tags? Or sub folders?
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by D-Tuned »

d.healey wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:59 am
There are multiple open and closed voicings for each chord in each inversion, so I think you have a difficult task. What about using tags? Or sub folders?
I've been warned about that and am of necessity forced to do some
skipping but I'd still like to finish what I started. I'm making diagrams
that go into an html table so they all have to have a file-name that is
short, unique AND well describes the chord to be humanly readable.
It's another thread, I just started this one to clarify inversion open-closed
voicing terms in use in/outside chord names before cooking my own
symbology to distinguish them.
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by merlyn »

You could use the voicing in the file name. Take this chord :

Image

It would be A7-7-3-1-5 going from the top down.

A C root position would be C-5-3-1, C first inversion C/E-1-5-3 (use the broken bar if you want), C open triad with E on the top C-3-5-1.
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:33 pm You could use the voicing in the file name. Take this chord :

Image

It would be A7-7-3-1-5 going from the top down.

A C root position would be C-5-3-1, C first inversion C/E-1-5-3 (use the broken bar if you want), C open triad with E on the top C-3-5-1.
Aaaaaaah, NOW we're gettin' somewhere! :lol:

BTW, except for whether it's open voiced or not 531 or E-A-C# otherwise describes the inversion so why a need for C/E additionally (unless that's more a sheet music convention for the bass player)?

I do have things like some of the above in mind and half way on paper though changing daily, the above is similar to tablature and one could use a 24 digit number to completely describe the chord but that wouldn't be humanly readable. The C531 would say something similar to my A7_0304, experts might even infer more from that than others who need the diagram.

But THIS thread is about whether the open or closed nature of an inversion IS in today's practice indicated in the chord name instead of in the form of extra remarks like "it's an X_153 triad open voicing with a 3 an octave higher".

I don't want to step on my parent thread here but I'm thinking along lines of A#×3»0503
A#×3»0503.png
A#×3»0503.png (15.89 KiB) Viewed 11969 times
where "×3" says that the highest note on the staff is an x-triadoctave 3rd (it was initially a "*" meaning the high star over the rest but * is off-limits). "»" says the formation is wider than just a triad (_), and such tricks. Now if the triad was in addition inverted 2nd (5th on the bottom) then it would become A#¦5×3» with the "¦5" showing that 2nd inversion but this still wouldn't say if closed-voiced (default) or open-voiced but such might be inferred from the two characters. I might use another character for "the highest triad note within the triad or triad inversion such as A#¦5×3⁋1. Like I said I want to keep to THIS topic here, how do pro musicians today indicate if an inversion is open-voiced if let's say the default would be closed-voiced, especially if that indication would be in the chord name itself?
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by merlyn »

Re-arrange these words into a well known phrase or saying : stick end of wrong :D

Chord symbols can be interpreted by the player. It's up to the player to choose exact voicings, even to add notes or take them out. Chord symbols are deliberately loose to allow interpretation. If the precise, exact voicings were required to be specified notation would be used.
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Re: Triads/Inversions open/closed voiced?

Post by D-Tuned »

merlyn wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:34 pm Re-arrange these words into a well known phrase or saying : stick end of wrong :D

Chord symbols can be interpreted by the player. It's up to the player to choose exact voicings, even to add notes or take them out. Chord symbols are deliberately loose to allow interpretation. If the precise, exact voicings were required to be specified notation would be used.
I've read few pages about the topic, like this one:

https://www.fretjam.com/guitar-chord-theory-4.html

Interesting revelations about descending bass-lines etc, all new to me though. Beyond 'The Sloop John B' I was not much of a Beachboys fan.

Looks like the slash cords are mostly for the bass player, you can have them there for guitar too but unless the guitar is solo the bass will totally drown out any /D etc. As for the inversion being open-voiced or closed-voiced it looks like that's implicit in other details. I thought it might be before I posted this thread and I have no problem with that, for my own use I'll include in the file-name a slash-bar ¦ otherwise ac per convention but if the triad is inverted I'll show an implicit ¦5 for a 2nd inversion, for me on my guitar that being more important. The bass player can have his/her own sheet :-)
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