3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

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Count
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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:14 am

Michael Willis wrote:
Count wrote:First time I'v gone this far with a distro!

So... I'm going to blank it and start again with a bit more of an idea of what I am doing... :)

be back soon! :)

Best of luck! I commend your tenacity, and I have confidence that it will work out better now that you have more experience.


Thank you and yes... :)

I have more of a general idea of what is going on so can set things out more methodically from the start! Thanks for the g up! :)


sysrqer wrote:Liquorix is good, I use it and sounds like it might be easier for you.

For pulseaudio you need to select the boot option in cadence. If you have done that already then make sure you have the pulseaudio jack module installed.

I'm not sure what to think about the outputs problem. I would definitely try the Scarlett, I also have one and it is always solid works well. You can set the in out number in cadence but it should work automatically. Trying the liquorix kernel might help with this, perhaps the card is not supported with the kernel version you currently have.


Well...

First of all apologies for my scatter gun approach... I have been in software testing and tech support professionally so I can do methodical lol!

The reason why I haven't persevered with some things is because I have been unsure whether issues have been down at the hardware level... which could render all my/our fault finding irrelevant... or up at the app layer...

So, in the spirit of scatter gun; the last couple of days...
1 - I followed the instructions, installed Neon OS, added the repos, installed meta packages etc,
2 - Lots of additional problems not had before, same issues with Fasttrack Ultra jumping on and off. Sometime 8 channels, sometimes 1, sometimes none, but it behaved like that in both set ups. Rakarrak would not load, even after reinstall. On the new setup no matter what I did I could not get Pulse to start or any browser audio.
3 - All the Bristols that wouldn't on the last setup would now work perfect via either Claudia launcher or a Claudia session
4 - I tried installing some further packages from the repo to resolve these issues - guesswork at this point - but I seemed to have a 'conflict' where they wanted to uninstall the upper level meta package entirely.

The upshot is:
After these steps backwards I have learnt a great deal very quickly! Also in the last hour I went back to the KXStudio repo list and reinstalled all the basic and necessary stuff, and freshly installed lots of other useful sounding back and front end kind of stuff.

The result of that was Rakarrak started to work. I believe that was down to missing various plug in sets from the repo, VSTs and the like.

So after this latest sweep of the repo lots of things are now there and working;
Rakarrak
Browser audio is there plus is also on patchbay, pulseaudio bridge there as it should.
Jack seems to be remembering things as it should, and the Scarlett is there with its correct no of I/O channels seemingly on every boot now...

A lot of issues bottomed themselves out really.

Now to find/create my best desktop environment for what I want. Unfortunately I did not enjoy NEON! I can understand why it caused division in the community - there are some odd changes - just petty things really I guess!

But one odd thing... On previous KDE desktops you can select to have the Virtual Desktop thumbnail in the taskbar to have that desktop number or desktop name displayed over the thumbnail - that's been removed!

So I might go for the latest KDE Mint - or... is that just the same KDE Desktop environment with those same minor changes ported across?!

Well just gonna have to suck it and see... I'm going in again, pass me my 4GB usb...

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby sysrqer » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:23 am

I don't think Neon changed much at all, it's fairly vanilla as far as KDE goes (it's one of its aims). Are you sure you're not just seeing the kde4>kde5 differences? Kubuntu, KDE Mint or any other is going to be much the same, with maybe a slightly different config and/or colour scheme, assuming they are running a more or less equal version of kde.

Right click on the virtual desktop changer, configure pager. You can add numbers or names or neither there.

Glad you have everything working now though.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Musicteacher » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:36 am

Hi,
I have the latest plasma, here you can definitely configure the desktop-number to be shown.

There are two configs: Configure virtual desktops (where you can set the number of virtual desktops, for instance) and configure virtual desktop switcher (where you can configure the app that switches those). You can set to show the numbers in the latter one.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:24 am

Musicteacher wrote:Hi,
I have the latest plasma, here you can definitely configure the desktop-number to be shown.

There are two configs: Configure virtual desktops (where you can set the number of virtual desktops, for instance) and configure virtual desktop switcher (where you can configure the app that switches those). You can set to show the numbers in the latter one.


Yeah found it!

sysrqer wrote:I don't think Neon changed much at all, it's fairly vanilla as far as KDE goes (it's one of its aims). Are you sure you're not just seeing the kde4>kde5 differences? Kubuntu, KDE Mint or any other is going to be much the same, with maybe a slightly different config and/or colour scheme, assuming they are running a more or less equal version of kde.

Right click on the virtual desktop changer, configure pager. You can add numbers or names or neither there.

Glad you have everything working now though.


But what I don't seem to be able to do is have each desktop a different colour. Not only that but there are only flat colours available, no two-tone designs. Really? Was it that taxing to the system resources that it needed cutting out? That is a retardation and is a confusing aspect of this 'upgrade'. It was the first thing I would do to an OS, set up different coloured desktops. I understand more and more are heading towards Activities over desktops - but the user had a choice that is being taken away. This whole NEON upgrade is straight out of the pages of Microsoft/Apple it really is!

Yes I am new to KDE 5 - I didn't realise till I installed it that all the KDE distros would be NEON on 5... - I hated it so much I reinstalled Mint - however I used MINT KDE - which is now NEON so its exactly the same - except the distro has an overall better setup on MINT. Is it all in partition or burner software now?

I feel like I'm watching Star Wars in 1997. Lots of really good technical stuff done under the hood, but some highly questionable decisions on the front end that are simply baffling.

The panel/widget customisation is very dodgy... it is all over the place. Handles don't handle, things don't resize, the whole system hangs and stutters when using it.

I don't like the overall look, it's part of that general trend towards straight edged smart phone/tablet style windows. I can understand why many in the Linux/KDE community were appalled at the new look NEON because it is a sign of a development moving away from PC towards phone/tablet or at least multi device, which is usually to the detriment of the PC community. I don't think that's KDE's intention, instead I think they are just confused and have gone for what appears to be a fashionable look rather than continuing on their own path.

So... I am again on the hunt for a desktop distro. I may try out Cinnamon... thing is this is EXACTLY what I wanted to avoid - and makes you appreciate how good KXStudio is as a full package to give everything out of the box.

Back to square one - NEON is a disaster in my opinion. A mistake. I hope KDE roll back somewhat and return the useful features they took away back to the desktop. I really hope they update the KDE ISO!!
Last edited by Count on Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:45 am

... and the RapsberryPi is also a bit of a disaster atm!

I installed Rasbian okay, then after some simple config set up it demanded a reboot... and it's never come back up since.

It appears there is n HDMI issue that is EXTREMELY common, so common it is almost a feature of the PI, that has been known about for years, posts on this precise issue from 2013, but the user is still left blind and lost searching Google for a solution...

Still reading and trying to comprehend this... why o why o why o why o why is there not a note on the download page? Warning after installing OS you may not be able to connect to a monitor... at all... without IPing into the unit and changing config files...

I may be thinking wrong but WOULDN'T IT BE EASIER TO CHANGE THE CONFIG FILE BEFORE THE SCREEN GOES COMPLETELY BLACK!??!!?

Searching Google for "RaspberryPi Known Issues" first result is a list of ten. At number six,

6. Raspberry Pi Not Working with HDMI Based Display

So you could connect with your Pi via ssh but you can’t just seem to get it to work with a display over HDMI? There are two things to do;

Do a check on your HDMI cable
Connect the display to the Pi and select the correct mode (HDMI or VGA) on the monitor before powering your Raspberry Pi. It is important that your screen is turned on before powering the Pi.


Not the actual problem that it seems 99.9% of the reported HDMI issue is.

The problem with the Pi is not the cable or the monitor, because you are able to boot to HDMI in the first instance with a gloriously beautiful full video colour display.

The issue is known to be the config file... but then I'm only a day into using the Pi so this is just a first impression... and it's not good!

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:07 am

sysrqer wrote:Glad you have everything working now though.


Yes - before I wiped it for Mint yes I was having some good sessions!

Got guitarix working beautifully!

What was interesting while using NEON was that I didn't install another kernel, just used the generic, and there were 0 xruns the whole time. I thought the electric guitar would be a bit of a test?

Despite the angst and the ranting lol it is very valuable experience - after all this is how we learnt under the Windows hood back in the 90s through the pain of things not working! I'm not just wanting a final finished product... I am wanting to learn this stuff... my mate is always and forever encouraging me towards Arch...

Now the challenge is, which I thought I'd solved on KDE4, the perfection of the interface...

So next step... is I will probably now install a number of different distros on this one disc so I can compare and break apart easier... I think I'll go back to that latest KXStudio ISO, and also pop a copy of NEON and Mint on there as well. That way I can really break one of the distros apart.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:19 pm

RaspberryPi:

Actually one thing I was wrong about - the Pi has THREE video outputs. I knew about the I/O pins. But other than the HDMI the small jack is a composite video plus audio in one port. I had read that the Pi had composite video but I had then assumed that the model I had did not have composite video and that was an audio I/O only.

That does change things a bit yes! I should even have a combined audio/composite video lead in a box somewhere! This lead will be from a video camera.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:25 pm

sysrqer wrote:I don't think Neon changed much at all, it's fairly vanilla as far as KDE goes (it's one of its aims). Are you sure you're not just seeing the kde4>kde5 differences? Kubuntu, KDE Mint or any other is going to be much the same, with maybe a slightly different config and/or colour scheme, assuming they are running a more or less equal version of kde.

Right click on the virtual desktop changer, configure pager. You can add numbers or names or neither there.

Glad you have everything working now though.


It is a shame about the cosmetic changes... and some of the 'breakages'

Because booting between the two - KXStudio (18) and Linux Mint (18.3) KDE it does seem that overall the KDE 5 is giving the smoother ride. it is handling my desktop wants so far, like nicely resuming desktop states and keeping Window states etc... early days still - but it does seem to technically do what I want... just not in the exact way I wanted! Still not seen a single xrun yet.

I am really feeling that frustration of the KDE4-5ers... want KDE 4 back...!

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby sysrqer » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:57 pm

Count wrote:I am really feeling that frustration of the KDE4-5ers... want KDE 4 back...!

I didn't look back at all but I can see why you might be frustrated. I've never tried to set different wallpapers as I rarely see my desktop but you're right that there seems to be no way to. It runs smoothly for me though and I find it quick, light and clean.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:57 pm

sysrqer wrote:
Count wrote:I am really feeling that frustration of the KDE4-5ers... want KDE 4 back...!

I didn't look back at all but I can see why you might be frustrated. I've never tried to set different wallpapers as I rarely see my desktop but you're right that there seems to be no way to. It runs smoothly for me though and I find it quick, light and clean.


Yes I do agree on that - engine wise it seems to be that bit smoother.

I guess it's one of those cosmetic things you take for granted!

I am very visually orientated anyway and I find the colours really helpful.

This is a freshly installed KXStudio just as an example, I leave a little gap to the left of the starter and it's a visual confirmation of the desktop I should be on.
snapshot2.png

When it comes to my full studio set-up there are 12 desktops, for the live set up it's likely I'll use 4 to 6 desktops.

My end goal is to have this on touch screen - then in a live gig I can quickly switch between instruments each on a dedicated desktop.

I'm so used to the PatchBay being on red, Drums machine on blue, Synths on green, guitar on teal... mostly these colours have been colour picked from a main app on the desktop - Carla patchbay red, Hydrogen blue, teal from Rakarrak! I'm so used to it by now!

That combined with the way I have the taskbars set - I would normally take the activities widget off and the system notifier. A nice big clock, and possibly a timer... Then in the space in the middle of the taskbar are live apps from the current desktop only. I then might have a system toolbar autohidden to the right/left

So then for instance if I accidentally minimize a window I still know if I'm the right window by its colour and can calmly just go to the taskbar and flick back up whatever app I need to use.

The one thing I need to avoid during a live set is to be fumbling for a minimized app... I need to be on it in a second 2 at the most.

So even activities is too long to switch - "Live" is itself an Activity with 4-6 desktops.

This is what I've struggled to replicate over on Neon.

Oh and I hope you don't take my ranting to heart! :) I do appreciate your help and it would not be a learning if it worked first time!
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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:03 pm

sysrqer wrote:
Count wrote:I am really feeling that frustration of the KDE4-5ers... want KDE 4 back...!

I didn't look back at all but I can see why you might be frustrated. I've never tried to set different wallpapers as I rarely see my desktop but you're right that there seems to be no way to. It runs smoothly for me though and I find it quick, light and clean.


I'm writing this from back over on the KXStudio boot so can#'t check right now...

The Neon desktop wont let you choose different colours, but will it let you choose different png/jpg images for each desktop? That would be a workaround compromise.

[EDIT]

To answer my own question... found this from the KDE forums;

See: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341143

yes, the feature has been removed and due to the huge problem and added complexity it gave, is not going back.
different workspaces with different containment/wallpaper can be done with activities, and that's what's supported.


That is gutting.

I might be able to put some work into Activities and get it resemble the behaviour of VDs... but where is the level above that?

I dont want an entire desktop environment for a separate instrument. The use of VDs within Activites over the top is proving to be perfect for my set up!

"Full Studio"
12 Desktops, 2 rows: Manager, PatchBay, Drums, Looper, Synth 1, Effecrts, Guitar, Sampler, spare, spare, Synth 2, Mixer

"Live (all)"
6 desktops

"Live (Guitar)"
4 desktops

"Office"
4 desktops

"Browser"
2 Desktops

"Photography"
etc

If I'm using the separate instruments from each desktop within an activity instead then is it possible to group the activities possibly on their own taskbar?

By using Activities instead then I've also got everything all mixed in there together, writing apps, photography, video editing, brwosing...

I did get the impression from a distance that the KDE 4-5 switch was a looking a lot like a replay of the Unity community angst and split!

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby merlyn » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:54 pm

Count wrote:However I didnt try again after reading that that low latency kernel was an out of date kernel anyway...

I wouldn't consider a kernel that is around a year old 'out of date'. It's not the latest, but not 'out of date' either. Certainly more up to date than the 3.something kernel you've been using in KXStudio. :)

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:54 am

merlyn wrote:
Count wrote:However I didnt try again after reading that that low latency kernel was an out of date kernel anyway...

I wouldn't consider a kernel that is around a year old 'out of date'. It's not the latest, but not 'out of date' either. Certainly more up to date than the 3.something kernel you've been using in KXStudio. :)


Okay fair enough I know very little so that was what I had read! - just trying to sift thru the reading to do and what is relevant and what is not!

---

I think the answer on KDE longer term is to rethink parts of the entire workflow. Activities and VDs might be able to do this between them, but I think it's going to take some custom widgets.

At least from Activity to Activity you can have different coloured dekstops, although it doesn't exactly work for me right now because it doesn't fit exactly to my use.

My kinda problem with that is I'm now spending time and effort learning/reading/trying/ Activities to replicate something I was previously able to do. That doesn't smack of progress to me! I find it difficult to get my head round how KDE can say it's too technically difficult when that Virtual Desktop environment itself was full of preloaded facilities to customize it your full needs. Like the cube switcher, kinda becomes lot duller if the cube has 6 identical sides.

I juts hope they catch-up and overtake the development and state of VDs with the new focus on Activities and provide a really full and deep level of customisation - because at the moment options are very sparse, so we rely on downloading widgets, which currently doesn't seem to have great variety, lots of widgets that do the exact same thing.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby merlyn » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:46 am

Count wrote:Okay fair enough I know very little so that was what I had read! - just trying to sift thru the reading to do and what is relevant and what is not!

You may have read that kernel 4.15 is EOL upstream. That means the kernel developers (Linus & friends) won't be doing any more work on 4.15.

KDE Neon uses the Ubuntu kernel, not the upstream kernel. Ubuntu 18.04 LTS will be supported until 2023, and that includes the kernels in the repo.

As for your desktops -- you want a coloured rectangle in the left hand corner? Could you use window rules and a lightweight image viewer like feh or sxiv?

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:38 pm

merlyn wrote:
Count wrote:Okay fair enough I know very little so that was what I had read! - just trying to sift thru the reading to do and what is relevant and what is not!

You may have read that kernel 4.15 is EOL upstream. That means the kernel developers (Linus & friends) won't be doing any more work on 4.15.

KDE Neon uses the Ubuntu kernel, not the upstream kernel. Ubuntu 18.04 LTS will be supported until 2023, and that includes the kernels in the repo.

As for your desktops -- you want a coloured rectangle in the left hand corner? Could you use window rules and a lightweight image viewer like feh or sxiv?


Yes quite! It was more than just that little patch - it was more a safety device for my human panic mode during live performance when you switch to a desktop expecting an instrument/app to be there but to be faced with a blank desktop instead - I know I'm on the right desktop by its colour and don't have to flap around!

But yes you are right - I could do with shaking up my general workflow. Most of the solutions I reckon could be found in Windows rules or taskbar/activities widgets.

As for KDE NEON - well what can I say? There are moments when I have to clench and grit my teeth - I really hate some of the cosmetics... after such a strong look there are a lot of stylistic inconsistencies around the distro. But I see that this is them taking a step or two backwards in order to take two or three forwards. I think the widgets show a lot of promise to overtake KDE 4 and provide even more customisable functionality than ever before - even though at the moment it feels not.

I am now thoroughly enjoying my desktop experience on NEON! It is wonderful! There are problems and niggles (widgets and taskbars, and lack of stylistic consistency)

Under the hood it just feel smooth, solid, robust. If this is the future then yeah I'm fine with it and sticking with KDE!

And yes I did get confused and lose the thread on KDE/Ubuntu etc... I hadn't realised KDE 5 had replaced KDE 4 on all new distro ISOs.

I was happy in my distro - I hadn't looked in on distro watch for years!


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