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Re: Why VST??

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:59 pm
by sysrqer
A lot of very big name artists use Windows, it's definitely possible to successfully use it for writing, live performance, and production.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:03 pm
by Luc
sysrqer wrote:Who cares about acceptance? Why would I need or want to should out loud that linux is in the game?
We need more support by third party providers, we need more critical mass and yes, we need more acceptance. I use a superior OS, and more often than not I am treated with distrust and derision. One can lose work opportunities because of that travesty.

Summing up:
What we have: a great OS and some great software
What we need: proper recognition

But the entire Linux community has been fighting hard for that for a long time, and ain't giving up anytime soon.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:26 pm
by sysrqer
I'm not sure that's entirely true, we have semi lost at least one valuable developer due to Linux being a pain to maintain and support. It would suggest there may be deeper things wrong rather than simply lack of recognition.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:43 pm
by rghvdberg
I don't really care what others think about me using linux.
I think we have a great OS and great software. Surely things can be improved and added but I don't think we need approval or recognition from the 'outsiders' ;-)

Linux gives me a joy of using my computer like no other OS has done. Even the things that don't work give it a kind of charm for me. Strange but true.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:55 pm
by sadko4u
sysrqer wrote:I'm not sure that's entirely true, we have semi lost at least one valuable developer due to Linux being a pain to maintain and support.
I don't see any problems in maintenance and support of Linux. For most cases (excluding some unique and magic ones) pre-compiled binaries work well. Probably there is lack in right design of plugin core that yields to lots of job of implementing new bundle. I don't want to vaunt but I currently have no problems when developing new plugin bundles. The only invalid decision was made to use gtk2 for UI, but I currently do some job to port UI to raw X11. And what I can tell... Today's test with JUCE-based host and Ardour showed that mouse and keyboard events are now correctly passed to my UIs in both cases (GTK doesn't work for JUCE, don't know why). The only job is left to port all widgets and dialogs to raw X11.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:22 pm
by rghvdberg
sadko4u wrote: don't see any problems in maintenance and support of Linux.
that's because you know what you're doing :D

are you a full-time developer?

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:49 pm
by sadko4u
rghvdberg wrote:that's because you know what you're doing :D

are you a full-time developer?
Yes, I'm full-time software developer. Music is my hobby.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:26 pm
by sysrqer
sadko4u wrote:
sysrqer wrote:I'm not sure that's entirely true, we have semi lost at least one valuable developer due to Linux being a pain to maintain and support.
I don't see any problems in maintenance and support of Linux. For most cases (excluding some unique and magic ones) pre-compiled binaries work well. Probably there is lack in right design of plugin core that yields to lots of job of implementing new bundle. I don't want to vaunt but I currently have no problems when developing new plugin bundles. The only invalid decision was made to use gtk2 for UI, but I currently do some job to port UI to raw X11. And what I can tell... Today's test with JUCE-based host and Ardour showed that mouse and keyboard events are now correctly passed to my UIs in both cases (GTK doesn't work for JUCE, don't know why). The only job is left to port all widgets and dialogs to raw X11.
I can't speak for the person/team in question but I seem to remember the reasoning being along the lines of too much hassle. But as a user of your plugins it does seem that you have relatively few issues.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:13 am
by glowrak guy
sysrqer wrote:I'm not sure that's entirely true, we have semi lost at least one valuable developer due to Linux being a pain to maintain and support. It would suggest there may be deeper things wrong rather than simply lack of recognition.
From the little I've read, I gather that all the current commercial plugin formats have serious design flaws,
and various gui workarounds are also needed to keep things working right in some cases.
Then it takes a certain baseline number of sales to make the efforts worthwhile,
pretty difficult to maintain, unless you develope cross platform,
or can aquire brilliant interns with some regularity.

As to "there may be deeper things wrong rather than simply lack of recognition",
I think there are more people hired as CEO/CTO than are as cat-herder,
and the freedom-centricity of linux devs, often plays out differently than
the decisive actions required by a boss, who can terminate someone for failures,
or for far less.

Beyond that, if linux were a community in the shape of 'one big happy family',
there probably wouldn't be 1287 distros... :wink:

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:55 am
by Drumfix
LOL: The next developer wasting his time on porting his gui code to plain X11 to work around the problems with the host developers "we want to have full control over the plugin window, so we won't support your external UI extension to VST".

BTW, my private plugins are therefor the only VST plugins that work with their own IU in native reaper.

And hint, hint: In a similar (actually even more trivial) way a one can write a VST wrapper to make any native linux VST run in native reaper with its own GUI. And, because the WinVST wrappers are actually linuxvsts, it would even be possible to run Winvsts with their GUI in native reaper.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:08 pm
by sadko4u
Drumfix wrote:LOL: The next developer wasting his time on porting his gui code to plain X11 to work around the problems with the host developers "we want to have full control over the plugin window, so we won't support your external UI extension to VST".
I don't understand what's funny here? I'm not happy about JUCE and don't like JUCE-based hosts. But I work not for Tracktion or other developers. I work for users that use this piece of software and send reports to me. The only LOL is that instead of fixing JUCE code and deploying this code to all software, JUCE developers fuckup their users. That's all.
Drumfix wrote:BTW, my private plugins are therefor the only VST plugins that work with their own IU in native reaper.
And? What advantages of running your plugins in limited environment? "Buy the Reaper and you can use my plugins"? Nice, LOL.
Drumfix wrote: And hint, hint: In a similar (actually even more trivial) way a one can write a VST wrapper to make any native linux VST run in native reaper with its own GUI. And, because the WinVST wrappers are actually linuxvsts, it would even be possible to run Winvsts with their GUI in native reaper.
I don't understand what you mean. For normal plugin development it's normal to write a wrapper. Do you advertise some SDK provided by Reaper?

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:40 pm
by sysrqer
beck wrote:
sysrqer wrote:A lot of very big name artists use Windows, it's definitely possible to successfully use it for writing, live performance, and production.
Not to put you in the corner or whatever. Just a question.
Can you tell me which studio, band or song?
For producers https://www.youtube.com/user/mixbustv/videos he uses windows and in his last video he said that he mixes about 300 songs per year for clients so it is definitely his career.

Seems like Venetian Snares at least used to, he mentions "Cubase and OctaMed for the PC" http://trashaudio.com/2013/06/workspace ... an-snares/, incidentally he says he uses renoise and no plugins so he could probably use linux for that if he wanted to without any problems.

I can't vouch for these but apparently:
Lex Luger via Compaq Pc and Macbook using Parallels. Later on using a Hp laptop w/Windows 7
Timbaland used a Dell to make the beats for Stronger with help with mpc. Windows Xp. ( tho still uses an imac 2011 )
Hit Boy used a Windows Xp Dell along with macbook.
Deadmau5 uses Windows 7 to Dj (even has the fake windows crash sound during his set)
Dj White Shadow Made Artpop on a Dell laptop using Fl studio and pro too

I'm fairly sure Burial said his first album was made with windows.

http://hiphopmakers.com/fl-studio-music-producers

How about an Eminem song?
http://hiphopmakers.com/cardiak-making- ... -fl-studio

Very big names listed there - http://www.image-line.com/flstudio/powerusers.php


Windows is fine to use, just tune it to how you want to it be (something you also need to do with linux) and don't install a load of crap or click on ads from porn sites. I think you would be very surprised how many people use Windows for music and about how much famous commercial music has been made with it.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:01 pm
by CrocoDuck
You guys know what I think about this, but I am gonna restate it again.

It's really from the early 2000s that each desktop operating system under the sun started becoming capable of sustaining professional audio workloads. That's it. If one looks at the technical aspects there is not difference whatsoever between properly configured operating systems running on compatible hardware. This is also largely due to the fact that computers are pretty damn fast nowadays.

If ones wants to push stability to the highest limit (and does not want to involve an IT guy to take care of the machines in a recording studio) the solution for big companies is a dedicated workstation. These cost at least few k$. What do they run? Up to something like 10 years ago, often a BeOS of some kind. BeOS was the only operating system designed for multimedia, and it is its own thing. Not even UNIX based. Now, for perhaps tons of reasons, BeOS is being dropped in favour of other things. For example, Windows. This is the choice iZ made, for example. The RADAR V (2005) was running a BeOS system at release. Now, they adopted an optimized Windows 8.1 for their products. These dedicated workstations are fairly often used in major recording studios, concert halls and theatres. Running a high performance machine was very important 10-15 years ago since an all purpose computer + all purpose OS was not enough in many situations. Nowadays the hardware has so high performances that also desktop OSes can do the job.

Now, I think that the point was "people think that only Mac exists and trash talk about other stuff". Well, a lot of people do believe that. I think it all spawns from the fact that in the past Apple made some hardware choices that resulted in very high image colour fidelity. Since then people have in mind the equation Mac = multimedia OS, even if today Mac runs on very standard hardware (and even if that did not have much to do with audio at all). Truth is that Macs are really no better and when professional, high fidelity audio was involved, for a very significant part of recent history, the best choice was actually an operating system that had nothing to do with either Mac, Linux or Windows.

It is worth to notice that Linux is not discarded at all in big multimedia productions. Do you know computer animated movies? A big number of them were produced using Linux. When thinking about audio only, I think that Linux is an outsider just because it does not run ProTools. The fact is that very often different publishers and engineers need to work on sessions. For some reason ProTools become the standard professional DAW and now, if you want to be able to work with commercial partners, you perhaps need a working ProTools box. On the other hand, standard-of-industry 3D graphics software runs on Linux (see Maya for example).

In this realm, audio, there isn't a reason to prefer an operating system over another. If you need to run a server there are tons of technical reasons to choose Linux/BSD/Unix, but not for audio or graphics. When there aren't technical reasons what is left is whether or not that OS can run the standard-of-industry software. When this happens (3D graphics) Linux is taken into consideration. When not (audio) not so much.

And about people that do think there is a real best multimedia OS (or a worst one), if you are in the mood, ask them whether they are time travelling from the mid 90s and run BeOS.

I am getting used to type too much don't I...

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:18 pm
by Drumfix
sadko4u wrote:I don't understand what's funny here?
That LOL is sarcastic. You don't know the history of my fight for an external UI extension for VST.

The simple idea (also used by Linuxsampler) is to completely separate the GUI code into its own application. Therefor once and for all solving the problem of different GUI toolkits not working together well when used inside the same host.

Unfortuantely host developers refuse to implement it with even the most ridiculous excuses for not doing so. (not scalable, too complicated for plugin developers, "i want my host have control over the window", "i want my host to embedded the your plugin window", you name the bullshit).

So whenever i see some plugin developer again complaining about the toolkit problems and start to code his own i only have a sarcastic LOL.

My own plugins use the external UI extension (even though it is not supported by any host but my own proof of concept host) and have a (simple, but not so nice) fallback so they can be used in any linux VST host ever written, from the very first energyXT from 2006 to the lastest ardour/reaper/bitwig ...

As for the reaper hint: While reaper never calls a plugins "effEditOpen"/"effEditClose" it does call "effEditGetRect" every second time the GUI button is pressed. So a wrapper plugin can use this as the trigger to create a new window and supply it to the "effEditOpen" of the hosted plugin.
Such a wrapper could host LV2 plugins as well of course.

Re: Why VST??

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:34 pm
by skei
Drumfix wrote:While reaper never calls a plugins "effEditOpen"/"effEditClose" it does call "effEditGetRect" every second time the GUI button is pressed.
what?
are you talking about the (unfinished) linux version?
if not, you're wrong..

- tor-helge