Hi from jacklab.org

[metasymbol]

I'm Michael from jacklab.org and because audio Linux need a lot more support I support this forum with my account. Sry, my english is not so nice...

My statement:

AudioLinux need more developers with clear visions and strong skills! AudioLinux need stable and reliable user oriented production tools for music and video!

Hope one day we can use Linux as a equivalent platform beside windows or mac solutions! But lets be real: Now there are only many interesting proof of concepts, but no mature software that is comparable to windows or macos software.

For the time "between" as long as Linux has no mature software for creative media production, the jacklab community has made an improved "WineAsio" - which means, that you can use full featured Windows VST/ASIO Software like REAPER with a lot of VST plugins under WINE with audio realtime. WineAsio is not the solution, but now there is no need anymore to boot up Windows for make music.

What we really need is a full media solution, which must be based on 100% free software.

• -Full Audio/Midi Sequencer with FULL support for ANY musical / FX plugin
  -plus support for Video
  -plus a graphical plugin development suite (like synthedit for vst) for maximise the success of audio Linux. (save as lv2, au, ladspa, vst, whatever)

And not to forgot:

• -Linux distributors have to integrate a proper rt-kernel in their products. (opensuse started to do this in opensuse 10.3 because they hear the call from the jacklab community)

What comes next from JackLab:

• -We are now organized as foundation (jacklab e.V.) for carry the project in many aspects.
  
  -JAD 2.0 will come! This means, a fully polished, fast and user friendly live dvd with the option to install it on HD based on opensuse 11.

JAD 2.0 will be based on a tutorial, that we already started: "How to make your own KIWI JAD" -so there is the freedom to remaster an opensuse based audio distribution of your own taste - and it will be very easy for geeks to make their own gnome/kde/fluxbox dvd/cd/usb storage image.

I personally work on a "nanojad for eeepcs" - a funny lilttle computer, which can blow you away with ZynAddSubFX as sound software.

Finaly:

JackLab started as a user project, founded by me. I was a Linux newbee and only the wish to use linux for music was my motivation, but I found some developers and we learned to respect each other in their special skills and started to work together. So we made a community - and now we are one of the audio distributions, which must be named, when people talk about music and linux.

I wanna say -everybody can do the same - support Linux Audio means -be active part of the development, unless you have "big Linux skills" - with the will to learn about Linux, with the support of developers, every musician can change the situation of audio Linux. Your musical skills are important for the developers, because the combo "musician and developer" is rare. The common linux audio community need artistically support, sound designers, base tutorials, example songs etc!

Thank you for making this forum! Linux audio need web based forums (unless what some of the old mans from the LAU/LAD think about) Our support forum http://forum.jacklab.net is more important for the "end user" then any mailing list! But also developers using this forum (the wineasio devs Peter and Ralf, kunitoki from justice etc). Web based forums are a good place for to meet each other.

Greetings,
Michael

[james=jwm//art@net]

Hi Michael,

I'm fed up with hearing about how linux needs this and needs that in comparison with mac or windows. I don't actually care, I prefer to just get on and use it. I like it for what it is - not windows or mac - and use it for what it is.

That being said, I come from computers to music rather than from music to computers. I've never used studio equipment, never used studio software so I am I suppose fairly biased and/or ignorant.

In part, for me, it's as much about attitude, and ideals. My ideals are to make use of that which is available to me and to explore as thoroughly as possible what can be done with it. I'm not interested in expensive things, I can't afford to be interested in expensive things.

[studio32]

I'm Michael from jacklab.org and because audio Linux need a lot more support I support this forum with my account. Sry, my english is not so nice...

Welcome :)

Mine English isn't well either.... ;)

My statement:

AudioLinux need more developers with clear visions and strong skills! AudioLinux need stable and reliable user oriented production tools for music and video!

Hope one day we can use Linux as a equivalent platform beside windows or mac solutions! But lets be real: Now there are only many interesting proof of concepts, but no mature software that is comparable to windows or macos software.

For the time "between" as long as Linux has no mature software for creative media production, the jacklab community has made an improved "WineAsio" - which means, that you can use full featured Windows VST/ASIO Software like REAPER with a lot of VST plugins under WINE with audio realtime. WineAsio is not the solution, but now there is no need anymore to boot up Windows for make music.

What we really need is a full media solution, which must be based on 100% free software.

• -Full Audio/Midi Sequencer with FULL support for ANY musical / FX plugin
  -plus support for Video
  -plus a graphical plugin development suite (like synthedit for vst) for maximise the success of audio Linux. (save as lv2, au, ladspa, vst, whatever)

Agree! Linux should be able to compeat with other Os in audio area!
And also I like to see 100% free software, without solutions like wineasio, although it is nice that you guys work on such a project!

And not to forgot:

• -Linux distributors have to integrate a proper rt-kernel in their products. (opensuse started to do this in opensuse 10.3 because they hear the call from the jacklab community)

It will be in Debian in a few months...

What comes next from JackLab:

• -We are now organized as foundation (jacklab e.V.) for carry the project in many aspects.
  
  -JAD 2.0 will come! This means, a fully polished, fast and user friendly live dvd with the option to install it on HD based on opensuse 11.

JAD 2.0 will be based on a tutorial, that we already started: "How to make your own KIWI JAD" -so there is the freedom to remaster an opensuse based audio distribution of your own taste - and it will be very easy for geeks to make their own gnome/kde/fluxbox dvd/cd/usb storage image.

I personally work on a "nanojad for eeepcs" - a funny lilttle computer, which can blow you away with ZynAddSubFX as sound software.

Interesting, I never used Jacklab, I'm more Debian oriented...

Finaly:

JackLab started as a user project, founded by me. I was a Linux newbee and only the wish to use linux for music was my motivation, but I found some developers and we learned to respect each other in their special skills and started to work together. So we made a community - and now we are one of the audio distributions, which must be named, when people talk about music and linux.

I wanna say -everybody can do the same - support Linux Audio means -be active part of the development, unless you have "big Linux skills" - with the will to learn about Linux, with the support of developers, every musician can change the situation of audio Linux. Your musical skills are important for the developers, because the combo "musician and developer" is rare. The common linux audio community need artistically support, sound designers, base tutorials, example songs etc!

Thank you for making this forum! Linux audio need web based forums (unless what some of the old mans from the LAU/LAD think about) Our support forum http://forum.jacklab.net is more important for the "end user" then any mailing list! But also developers using this forum (the wineasio devs Peter and Ralf, kunitoki from justice etc). Web based forums are a good place for to meet each other.

Greetings,
Michael

Nice that someone like you supports this initiative and the forum! :)

Don't forget the things which are made and begun by the people of linuxaudio.org.... But I agree with you, We need a active community of linux musicians from all the different distro's and audio apps, who come together for support, ideas and development... a forum makes things much more 'alive' and active, which is good! And we don't have to life isolated.. we can see what kind of connection we can have with linuxaudio.org....

[metasymbol]

so I am I suppose fairly biased and/or ignorant.

It is a good idea, to close the eyes and be lucky in the own world. So it didn't hurt that the world around suffering of hunger for a "full blown" studio suite on Linux.

But I'm a musician and producer and I have a small studio with Mac and Windows and the comparison with Linux -everyday. On the boot-menu I decide - do i like to develop, debug or testing software (Linux) or do I want to work productive -creative with music (Mac).

It has nothing to do with "expensive things" - a studio need some standard - tools, like microphones, console and working daw software. It is something else then geeking around with some software, or trying and testing a bit.

[metasymbol]

Don't forget the things which are made and begun by the people of linuxaudio.org....

True, specially Dave Philips, who is member in almost every Linux audio web based forum, made a lot for to help musicians to find their way to Linux.

we can see what kind of connection we can have with linuxaudio.org....

I think it is a good idea and a there is a need for this forum (it grows very fast!) and if it's been successful, I'm sure the linuxaudio consortium will ask you for to join in.

[studio32]

Don't forget the things which are made and begun by the people of linuxaudio.org....

True, specially Dave Philips, who is member in almost every Linux audio web based forum, made a lot for to help musicians to find their way to Linux.

He has given me a nice 'tour' through linux audio world with his excellent writings.

Also the idea of linuxaudio.org with a portal to the mailinglists, wiki, apps and lac is good in my opinion... Problem is the lack of a active and flexible forum (as I said) and the wiki's (there are some really nice tutorials) are often outdated... And the linuxaudio.org are not very easy to find for the 'newbies' (which uses often Ubuntu)... Also the 'level' of most documentation is to high and they often assume that you are almost a software programmer... Not very motivating for the 'newbies'... Sometimes linux is still for the 'geeks', so you don't get a broad community, no new ideas, no talented developers etc etc...

we can see what kind of connection we can have with linuxaudio.org....

I think it is a good idea and a there is a need for this forum (it grows very fast!) and if it's been successful, I'm sure the linuxaudio consortium will ask you for to join in.

We'll see....

[thorgal]

to reply to James, I am not getting fed up but I do understand what you say. In my case, it's just natural to use linux since I worked with linux systems for 12 years during my scientific education and pro work in physics research and private software dev. I never really used a windows or mac system routinely and my admin knowledge of such systems is neighboring 0. I recently played around winXP in VirtualBox because my girlfriend cannot do without photoshop, illustrator, indesign , etc but is curious about using linux routinely (she enjoys MythTV greatly since I updated our LAN with a mythtv server! but she can only use mythfrontend from a linux box, hehe ). So I tested winXP in VirtualBox, it works great but I am not used to it and wouldn't change habits a bit (just like windoze users don't want to switch to linux for the majority of them )

Linux is great when it is familiar to you. I manage quite a few boxes and advise many people around me but since I started serious music production, I don't have much time for this consulting, I am 100% on the music and I "praise" the jack ppl for the tremendous efforts put into this framework. All I had to do was to pick it up and use it. I give as much feedback as I can because this framework is THE way in my case to achieve my music ideas in terms of production. And then, I will try it live with a couple of linux boxes as well but that's not for now, each thing at a time. Of course, I also agree to some extent that one OS needs to support certain standards. It is just embarassing on a philosophical level and oftentimes practical that some of these standards were DECIDED and kept CLOSED-SOURCE by the private industry. This is to my mind a remnant of old thinking (conservative capitalism) in a world that tries to change beyond the liberalisation of financial profits. We are only at the beginning of this change ... hopefully.

[james=jwm//art@net]

Have just had a look around at the forum. Some of the newbie questions - "I can't hear anything..." yeah, I can't even get my head around how to help. I setup my system... some time ago. Compiled the kernel for RT, setup qjackctl how I want... Alsa mixer settings... Got my head around it all and have long forgotten about it.

I've done coding, see http://wcnt.sf.net and that's taken me years, it's not even real-time, I do not have the maths skills to write decent FX or analogue modelling or the like. So I know how difficult, how completely non-trivial audio software is to code. What I've done is like entry-level stuff as far as synthesis goes.

The guys at LAD are doing a sterling job.

[zettberlin]

so I am I suppose fairly biased and/or ignorant.

It is a good idea, to close the eyes and be lucky in the own world. So it didn't hurt that the world around suffering of hunger for a "full blown" studio suite on Linux.

Well the my hunger is not yet silenced (more, better plugins with graphical interfaces, a powerfull realtime waveeditor easier to use then snd and some more would be quite nourishing...) but 2-3 years ago I stopped thinking stuff like "If I had Samplitude now...".

It depends on the things you want to do actually. Ardour works perfectly stable and is comfortable and powerfull enough to let me produce music recorded with microphones and LADSPA holds more on stock then most people imagine.
Composing music with Rosegarden is possible on a high level also and ZynaddsubFX and AMS give me every sound i want.

So even though there is a lot to do still, I can approve james point of view...

But I'm a musician and producer and I have a small studio with Mac and Windows and the comparison with Linux -everyday.

If there is a band, that pays for the session, it is quite bold to offer a Linux-PC only. One can do it, if the customer is ready to accept, that not everything is possible, what you can do with MAC plus commercial VST/AU.

One can say: OK - I record your music as is - you play it, I put it on disk faithfully, cut it, mix it, master it - thats it. No wonderstuff like Melodyne or NI-plugs. Get it like this or leave it.

Bu I know, that a (semi)commercial studio cannot afford easily to confront people willing to pay with limitations in the first place. Possible, but hard.

On the boot-menu I decide - do i like to develop, debug or testing software (Linux) or do I want to work productive -creative with music (Mac).

This - on the other hand, is a bit too negative. I work productive and creative with music in Ardour everytime I boot. No need to debug or test, everything, I use in real sessions (Ardour SVN ongoing, LADSPA-Plugins, Seq24, Specimen, AMS, Zynadd) works like a charm.

[metasymbol]

This - on the other hand, is a bit too negative.

there is no negativity in to name what I'm missing (as a musician/producer) in the studio. For sure there is Ardour and some nice apps on Linux. But the difference is to see when I boot up a Mac and see how nice the Mac version of Ardour supporting AU and LADSPA plugins and we Linux user still should use only poor LADSPA.

A native Linux Music production suite should have the features of some cheap windows shareware like REAPER with hundreds of freeware VST plugins - this is not negative, this is realistic. Rosegarden didn't make the job because of missing plugins, dssi is a joke. Ardour didn't make the job because of missing midi sequencer (maybe one day) and support for pro plugins (like the Mac Ardour already do). Zynaddsubfx is not a bad synth but where is a working plugin version? And at least -all this apps "work like a charm" but not together in a music host software - thats the difference.

[thorgal]

maybe you're missing the linux spirit ?
from what you are saying, you expect to be running everything within a unique host. Well, look at it this way : you have this unique host in linux, it's called Jack. All jack apps are clients of this "host". I know I know, strictly speaking, I am talking quasi-nonsense. But linux (and unix in general) are built up in this way : modular. Every app can be considered as a module. In other OSes, it looks from a distance that there should be one unique host from which you should be able to run every other module. If you grew up with that kind of framewrok, I can understand the logic of your argument, but really, running apps in a jack network or as plugins in a host, what's the big deal ? sure, there are low level contraints by not using the plugin approach. On the other hand, my e.g. multitrack host (Ardour) is less sensitive to fatal crashes due to crappy plugins. I would also like to know why the dssi framework is a joke to you by the way. dssi allows me to run VSTi's in a very stable manner, what's wrong with that ?

[metasymbol]

maybe you're missing the linux spirit ?

All jack apps are clients of this "host". I know I know, strictly speaking, I am talking quasi-nonsense.

I miss Linux spirit.... LOL

For sure this is nonsense and the modular Unix paradigm doesn't help a lot, when you need to work productive and creative. (I doesn't mean playing around with some apps)

Because, when JACK is a host for the modular apps, where is the save button?

In mature Linux apps like the Gimp I have everything on one place, plugins, colors, brushes and I can save the whole creation as one xcf multilayer image to editing it later. I think nobody would use the Gimp if you have to start 10 apps for making a picture and you can save only the layers one by one, but not the whole picture.

I would also like to know why the dssi framework is a joke to you by the way. dssi allows me to run VSTi's in a very stable manner, what's wrong with that ?

DSSI doesn't support midilearn. And the DSSI VST wrapper is in my experience everything else then stable. It seemed to work at the first sight, but then I try to recall a rosegarden song once again, mostly everything crashes badly. DSSI is dead and was never real alive, because the linux audio developers doesn't accept it as a instrument standard. 6 plugins in 3 years!

[studio32]

maybe you're missing the linux spirit ?

All jack apps are clients of this "host". I know I know, strictly speaking, I am talking quasi-nonsense.

For sure this is nonsense and the modular Unix paradigm doesn't help a lot, when you need to work productive and creative.

Because, when JACK is a host for the modular apps, where is the save button?

In mature Linux apps like the Gimp I have everything on one place, plugins, colors, brushes and I can save the whole creation as one xcf multilayer image to editing it later. I think nobody would use the Gimp if you have to start 10 apps for making a picture and you can save only the layers one by one, but not the whole picture.

LASH aims to make that possible... and jack patchbay...I think

[metasymbol]

LASH aims to make that possible... and jack patchbay...I think

Did you ever work with this practically?

[thorgal]

you sound like a funny guy
maybe you felt you were playing with some apps and that this feeling was counter productive / creative. I don't feel this way. I am not toying around and my system is very stable. But really, whatever suits you is fine. I find valuable tools in linux and don't mind compromising with non linux softwares but at the end of the day, all this is just a tool, I like to PLAY MUSIC most of all

But coming back to the discussion, where you see a flaw (no unique host with a big global save option), I see on the contrary some flexibility and more crash proof environment. But we're talking personal perceptions and we won't convince each other that the other one has a better one

so, in conclusion, if you feel linux is not good enough, there are plenty of alternatives out there. Why don't you wipe out your linux partition and allocate disk space for something else ... more creative ?