LinuxMusicians

skavar wrote:

GMaq wrote: ... I think there is all kinds of room in Debian-land for something like KXStudio, perhaps we could even collaborate on some stuff with all that Ubuntu-specific stuff out of the way.

While it is true that Debian Sid slows down a bit during the last phases of freezing and preparing the new Debian Stable releases the rest of the time it is right on the cutting edge with Debian testing not far behind, in fact Testing is very much in line with what the in-between non-LTS Ubuntu releases are doing anyway.

Anyway just wanted to clear the air... falkTX you're welcome to live in Debian-land as far as I'm concerned!

This...
would be the best option in my opinion.

If some collaboration could be formed then the user base would swell immediately I suspect.

Count me in as happy to support a move to Debian if it could be as optimal as some suggest. But, for that matter, I'll stick with KXStudio if it stays with the Ubuntu family. It's just good that there's alternatives so nobody can totally dictate everything. At any rate, I was just reading a bunch of Planet Ubuntu blog stuff and it's clear that Ubuntu is feeling the push back. Maybe they'll get the message that they can't go too far. Might want to wait and see if Canonical's direction is pure PR or actually has substance. If they make real changes to address people's concerns, then maybe it's worth it to stick with them. I do want to have simple things like playdeb as carrots to newbies and more.

wolftune wrote:Might want to wait and see if Canonical's direction is pure PR or actually has substance. If they make real changes to address people's concerns, then maybe it's worth it to stick with them. I do want to have simple things like playdeb as carrots to newbies and more.

It also could be worth waiting to see if some of the proposed changes by Ubuntu turn out to actually be good. I don't like the closed door development that has been going on, but I see some possibility for good things to come out of the direction they are proposing. Unity moving to QT/QML is potentially one of these. And to be honest, although I don't consider X.org server to be broken, it is plain that some competition among X11 implementations could spur innovation and development on the Linux desktop. Wayland is kind of competition and kind of not, given its close ties to X.org, so Mir may not be the end of the world after all.

looplog wrote: It also could be worth waiting to see if some of the proposed changes by Ubuntu turn out to actually be good. I don't like the closed door development that has been going on, but I see some possibility for good things to come out of the direction they are proposing. Unity moving to QT/QML is potentially one of these. And to be honest, although I don't consider X.org server to be broken, it is plain that some competition among X11 implementations could spur innovation and development on the Linux desktop. Wayland is kind of competition and kind of not, given its close ties to X.org, so Mir may not be the end of the world after all.

Well you may be right, but I left Ubuntu after the introduction of the Gnome3/Unity balls-up which I did not appreciate and moved to Debian Sid which I really liked... and my audio needs were taken care of by AVLinux. With the announced passing of updates to AVLinux I thought to try KXStudio, even though I really did not want to move back to a Ubuntu based system, Ubuntu had lost my trust, but KXStudio is so good that I swallowed my pride and have been happy and productive over the past few months. Now Ubuntu is at it again, and I will be glad to leave it behind. Just not so glad to go towards Arch.

My 19 yr old daughter is my distro litmus test. She is a savvy young drummer and composer, has just won the New Zealand School prize for young fine artist, photographs and designs cd art for other bands, and plays in two working bands. All this and her recording has been done in AVLinux with LXDE, and now KXStudio with XFCE. She is typical of her artistic peers, computer and media literate but only maintains facebook pages to showcase her and her bands work, doesn't want a flashy desktop, just wants something that works and that can be updated with the minimum of fuss. There is no way that she would be interested in Arch, its way too much trouble for no more in return. These guys don't like flashy sports cars, they like boxy, reliable, and cheap.

That is a summary of my reasoning for wanting to leave Ubuntu, but only in the direction of 'boxy and reliable'. Mir may become just what is needed, and when that happens, it is sure to be ported to Debian.

Regards
skavar

Wow! Is this the fastest growing thread on these forums yet? This topic has really rustled people.

I can't blame F for thinking about alternatives. First there was Unity, which was pretty bad but that was followed up quickly by the Amazon spyware and now Mir so we know now we cannot trust Ubuntu and they have proven they care not about the community (mainly Debian but also the Ubuntu users, X.org etc too) that made Ubuntu possible. I can't believe people are suggesting and F is even considering supporting the KX repos on two different distros!?! What? Are we honestly expecting one man to do all this, unpaid and alone?

Arch isn't a good choice though, I'm sure. There's a lot going for Arch - it has good docs, pacman is quick and efficient and Arch is one of the best, most popular community distros but it is NOT suitable for KX's audience ie Linux newbs and less techie types like regular musicians. Arch is only suitable for intermediate to advanced Linux users - the type who are prepared to recompile many apps or the kernel and fix/tweak the system and its packages regularly as the price for being bleeding edge and having a steamlined setup. I've installed Arch a few times on different machines and I don't think any install lasted more than a few months before it got wrecked by an attempted update - this seems to be the price of running a rolling release distro.

I've not tried Chakra or Mageia but I have ran Mandrake, Mandriva and OpenSUSE in the past. Whilst its nice to have a 'Control Panel' for newbs, they don't do much that can't be done with other GUIs easily installed via the Debuntu repos - SWAT for samba for example and Ubuntu/KX has managed fine without and don't get me started on RPMs - bleuurgh!

Sweeping away the layers of cack, I base my choice of distro on two main things:

* Large selection of easily installable packages, pref. from one or two central repos

* Easy, RELIABLE updates

I've only ever got this with stable releases of Debian and Ubuntu and also Debian Testing. With every other distro you can expect 'dependency hell' and/or having to self-compile most stuff. I really don't have the time for that and I think the benefits of doing so are often negligible.

IMO Ubuntustudio, Dreamstudio, KX and AVL should all merge into one distro primarily based upon KX Studio (ie its toolset and config etc) but rebase upon Debian Wheezy or the next Deb testing after Wheezy gets released. Distros come and go but there has always been Debian. Debian has a better rep for stability than Ubuntu, F already knows how the package management system works and its easier for KX/buntu users to switch to Debian than any other distro as Debian is the base of Ubuntu. Plus, nearly all free software that is not already in the Deb repos offer Debian packages.

Apart from AVL, I would also recommend people check out Kanotix to see a good example of a Desktop Debian distro. Mepis used to be good too although I've not tried that in years. Debian seems the only sensible choice to me.

guys, didn't falk say he can make it for both Arch and Ubuntu?
so you guys who don't like Arch that's cool but don't say he shouldn't have a KXStudio for Arch.. I love Arch more than any other distro because I have full control on what I install and don't have that dependency hell as much and yes, I've tried the top 20.
Let's just have KXStudio on as many distros as possible as it quite clear we can't please us all.

funkmuscle wrote:guys, didn't falk say he can make it for both Arch and Ubuntu?
so you guys who don't like Arch that's cool but don't say he shouldn't have a KXStudio for Arch.. I love Arch more than any other distro because I have full control on what I install and don't have that dependency hell as much and yes, I've tried the top 20.
Let's just have KXStudio on as many distros as possible as it quite clear we can't please us all.

Nobody said he shouldn't make a KXstudio for Arch. The topic is titled "MOVE KXStudio to ArchLinux". That's what I and other people are arguing about. Abandoning Ubuntu.

Nobody can be against having packages and repository for every distro out there. But we're aware FalkTX is an ordinary human so he can't do this alone. In a perfect world every distro should have KXstudio on it. Yes, it's that good. But abandoning Ubuntu spells disaster IMHO.

My humble suggestion would be: KXstudio (or better it's tool and apps) are released open source. If there are so many Arch enthusiasts, could not one (or more) of them take care of packaging them for Arch? And just maybe some Fedora user package them in RPM?

That way we'd have the major distros covered. Please bear in mind that I'm no Linux techie and I have just the basic grasp of what packaging means, so I don't honestly know if what I'm suggesting is viable...

I know but read through the thread, I've asked falk why not both and he said yes, he will do both that's why I'm wondering why the debate is still on..

looplog wrote:Just to be clear so that no one else takes me out of context, I am not bashing Arch. I love Arch. It fits me like a glove. I'll continue to use it for as long as it works for me. I don't think Arch is unstable, and I love rolling release. I don't have a problem with the forums, nor the philosophy behind Arch or its attitude to learning. When I want support I don't need friendliness or hand holding - I want direct and to the point technical assistance, which the Arch forums excel at providing. So I support Arch as a distro fully.

I just don't think Arch fits the idea of a general purpose music production distro.

People talking about Chakra are missing the point slightly. Chakra is not Arch, and is not even really Arch based besides the fact that it grew out of Arch originally. It *is* Pacman based, but there is no guarantee it will stay that way. So if you go with Chakra, you do not really get access to the knowledge resource of the Arch forums. Many Arch forums members are quite plain about it - they do not support Arch derivatives. There is also no guarantee that the help in the Arch wiki, one of Arch's greatest resources, will always apply to everything in Chakra either. So far as I know, Chakra is not directly compatible with the AUR either, so there goes that advantage.

So to go with Arch and retain access to existing community resources, my understanding is that you need to stay pure Arch. Even Archbang has its own support forums, because it has been stated again and again that the Arch forums are only for supporting Arch. I've read multiple times that the devs for Arch don't want to have to deal with users who are not prepared to edit their own config files, read regular system maintenance newsletters and keep up with general system related happenings. I dig that. It keeps Arch focused on a specific audience - self-sufficient tech users. There are music users who are also these kind of tech users, but the overlap is not that big.

I'm not going to say that Arch couldn't work, ever, for KXStudio. I just think Falk would have to take on a bigger load in the transition process, and I'd much rather see him working on his excellent music production toolchain than dealing with distro related issues.

If a transition does have to happen, I really think a more broadly focused distro should be considered. Apparently openSUSE is out of the question, which I think is a real shame, because it seems to have one of the most powerful toolchains for distro management in linux today, a broadly helpful community, a past pedigree as a focused general purpose audio distro, a focus on KDE, and one of the main Linux audio devs as an existing user.

Anyway, I'll keep my vote for Arch. I just hope that all of us who voted for Arch will be willing to get behind Falk and help him out should the transition prove to be not as simple as some here imply that it will be.

very, very good post

danboid wrote: Arch is only suitable for intermediate to advanced Linux users - the type who are prepared to recompile many apps or the kernel and fix/tweak the system and its packages regularly as the price for being bleeding edge and having a steamlined setup. I've installed Arch a few times on different machines and I don't think any install lasted more than a few months before it got wrecked by an attempted update - this seems to be the price of running a rolling release distro.

I would classifie myself as intermediate Linux user, perhaps, but I wasn't when I started to use Arch. Anyone who can read Wikis carefully and has some pacience can use Arch. I agree though that most beginners, and all newbies have problems with this.
I don't know how to compile, I don't know how to script, I don't know how to make a PKGBUILD. Contrary to other Distros you never have to compile anything because of AUR (though many packages in AUR got unmaintained latly)
I never wrecked my Arch install, in almost 3 years that I use Arch now (just reaintalled it once to switch to 64bit). Why? I read carefully.
I agree that a Audio-Distro shouldn't be like this. It should be very easy to maintain, without reading wikis, newsletters. But Falk said form the beginning that he would make his Arch-based Distro like this. If this is possible is another question.
Though Chakra seams not to be Arch anymore it sould still be an option (though I as an Arch user wouldn't like this).
Archbang would still be a solution, because it is Arch. KXStudio doesn't need the Arch Forum - it has it's forum here

GMaq wrote:I will say clearly that regardless of what the future of AV Linux is I would welcome falkTX/KXStudio to Debian with open arms... AV Linux uses Debian but since my personal belief is a studio should always be built on a 'Stable' distro I'm kind of a lone wolf (Debian doesn't package upstream versions for Stable)

Of course there's backports.debian.org, but agreed, it's limited.

While it is true that Debian Sid slows down a bit during the last phases of freezing and preparing the new Debian Stable releases the rest of the time it is right on the cutting edge with Debian 'Testing' not far behind, in fact Testing is very much in line with what the in-between non-LTS Ubuntu releases are doing anyway.

Anyway just wanted to clear the air... falkTX you're welcome to live in Debian-land as far as I'm concerned!

Debian is great, I just personally feel the freeze periods are getting to long... (it's been frozen since July now...).

I'm looking forward to actually trying Fedora - what I've seen so far looks really good!

@raboof

I think that the delays with getting Wheezy finished are certainly excessive but not normal or necessarily guaranteed to happen again in 2 years from now or whenever the next Stable after Wheezy is being prepared. Bear in mind that falkTX is an experienced packager so he doesn't need the latest Sid libs he simply needs the required development libs available to create his packages with so I think the freeze wouldn't even slow anything down. In fact on Squeeze's 2+ year old base I can still compile and package almost everything I need to anyway (admittedly I am getting near the end of the road) so while I agree as an end-user a freeze may be inconvenient it wouldn't be an issue to a 3rd-party repository packager.

So, what's the downsides to Debian? Sounds like it would totally work. Wouldn't it even then make it possible to integrate more easily into Ubuntu-based systems anyway? Just that basing KXStudio on Debian fundamentally frees everything from Canonical's whims?

But, you know, there's now weird rift seeming to arise between Kubuntu and Ubuntu, so who knows… maybe Kubuntu will just fork off of Ubuntu entirely? That's the sort of thing to wait for and then see about sticking with them or something.

Hi falkTX,

I'm voting no to the change because I have been an ubuntu user for several years and I like the familiarity.

That being said I would still run KXStudio on ArchLinux (or anything else) if it moved. I have installed it on my laptop and desktop and I love it. As a techy geek I don't mind playing around with my system.

I think as long as you just keep doing what you do you will retain a fanbase, but statistically speaking you will lose customers by not supporting the mainstream (Ubuntu, Debian etc).

So ... you have my loyalty, but I still vote no.
Barney

so it's tied up now.

Falk not relpying a while indicates he is testing, thinking or whatever.
let's wait for his statement

Thanks falk for spending so much time on this as well. I think something like an AV/KX merge or collaboration would be great, I'm not too familiar with AVLinux or what GMaq's intentions are for AVLinux in general but having two people on the job will surely make things easier and faster for you guys.

some hours ago I was thinking of posting something like this:
Perhaps it'll be the best the 2 Distro-Creators from this forum work tohether, perhaps even create a jointventure.

I don't think Arch-Users will be angry