Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Talk about your MIDI interfaces, microphones, keyboards...

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sysrqer
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Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by sysrqer »

I'm ashamed to say I don't know much about getting guitar signals in to computers, it's always been a bit of a gray area for me. I haven't had a guitar for a few years and the last time I had one I was using the V-amp to emulate the amp and then recorded directly in to the computer. Now my set up is a bit different.
I have a laptop and I will soon have an electric guitar. Ideally I would like to just plug the guitar in to my laptop, record it and process it after with guitarix (or do that on the way in, whichever). I'm guessing this isn't going to be very good quality though, not that I need pristine sound but I may as well aim as high as possible. Would I need some kind of usb soundcard or a DI or something? Is it really necessary?

What would be the cheapest solution? I saw a mention of this https://www.amazon.com/Black-Guitar-Int ... B003U6CT5K which is a good price and would fit my needs (I only want to record one guitar, I don't need knobs or faders or other inputs).

Or should I just buy a jack to mini jack and plug the guitar straight in to my laptop?

How about something like this https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_guitar_2_usb.htm
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

What audio interface do you own? Most have a "hi-z" (high impedance) input you can directly plug your guitar or bass into. In other words, most have a D.I. box built into them. Commonplace is a combo jack into which you plug either an xlr (mic) cable, or a 1/4 inch mono cord (guitar or keys). If you plug in an xlr, then the interface goes low impedance for a mic. If you instead plug in a 1/4 inch cord, then the interface goes high impedance for a guitar/bass or keyboard. For high impedance, there is usually an additional switch you toggle to either "HI-Z" (guitar/bass) or "Line" (keys, analog mixer, Cd player, guitar amp's "preamp out", etc).

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sysrqer
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by sysrqer »

j_e_f_f_g wrote:What audio interface do you own?
I don't have one. That's pretty much my question, whether I need one or if I can record directly in to my laptop's onboard card.

I don't want to record with a mic, it's not really an option for me.
beck wrote: Plug the amp in a mixer board (which is plugged in at your pc to record).
What's the difference between this and plugging it straight in to the pc? It changes the impedence? Uses the preamp?
beck wrote: And this is the unusual third easiest and cheapest option. This is a way that most 'professional recorders' ever heard about and they will alway's yell denying this possibily while screaming that plugging in your pc IS NOT POSSIBLE and can never ever give good results! :roll: :twisted:
Look at the super linux software program called: Guitarix.
http://guitarix.org
But can it lead to ok results? I used to do this years ago with a program called Amplitude as an amp sim but the results were always a little noisy, especially listening back to the recordings now, I can hear a distinct hum/hiss around 10khz.
I know guitarix is good, that's not my concern, I'm more worried about the quality of the audio going in to it.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by glowrak guy »

Used Fender Mustang 1 v.1 usb modeling amp/interface run $60 used,
new Mustang 1 v.2 is $120 new, both work with a debian app called 'plug'
that exposes (edit) the effects for edit/save.

sudo apt-get install mustang-plug

You can save 24 presets on the amps main dial, and unlimited #'s on disk.
Choose the Mustang in qjackctl 'input device' setting.

The older v1 has 12 amp models, newer one several more,
and the effects can be chained pre/post model.
There is a cab selection, even bias/sag settings.
Plug opens a separate selector panel for each area
of the amp.

You can make a clean setting for guitarix/rakarrack etc, from the Twin Reverb model,
or download a custom made one from a Fender website.

http://forums.fender.com/viewforum.php? ... 8c1cc4702c

google: fender fuse mustang preset "clean tone"

(fuse is Fenders mac/win gui amp/web software.)

An android app called Remuda can also control/edit the amp,
recently bluetooth is implemented, so using two androids can give you
wireless control, of which I have no personal experience. Remuda topic:

http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=100626

StudioDave did a nice Mustang article in the Linux Journal,
a few moons back.
Cheers
Last edited by glowrak guy on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by sadko4u »

For good quality, you should by audio interface with 'Instrument' input like Forusrite Sapphire/Scarlett.
I also specially bought Radial J48 + X-Amp to record/reamp guitar, so I use them to record DI signal.
Currently, there is alternative available from good russian hardware developers, AMT: http://amtelectronics.com/new/amt-reincarnator-rd-2/
This thing is both Di-Box and Reamper together. And it costs less than Radial.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by glowrak guy »

Fender Mustang provides the instrument input, and just a usb cable to computer/qjackctl.
Low cost, low noise, great sound, and priced very nicely. Simple, yet great.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by kbongosmusic »

Just tried wiring an electric guitar straight to a laptop. I though it would work ok, but it didn't, not enough volume. My newer laptop has a combined 1/8th inch jack that is labeled both headphone and mic. I didn't use that, I suppose it requires a three tip jack that I don't have. So I tried an older laptop to it's mic 1/8th inch jack. I cranked up the input level, but it still would only give only about 1/4 the total volume range. This using audacity.
I did test it with a headphone with a mic built in, that worked fine - but that's what it's designed for. I then switched to a Behringer USB audio adapter UCA202 with RCA inputs. That gave the same results - too low volume. And this results in noise if you try to compensate and turn up the volume after recording. I tried a few other electric guitars, same thing. Hooked guitar to my scope. I see a signal that can get up to 1 volt peak to peak, but that's really twanging the strings, mostly it is much less than that. A 10k resistor across the output brought the signal down to less than half. A google on electric guitar impedance said around 6k to 10k, and said this was high impedance.

So from that I assume the guitar signal is a little too weak to use directly. You need something to amplify it and provide a little more drive(lower impedance) is helpful. So that's where a mixer or effect unit is helpful - something designed for the range of signal that a guitar puts out. I have a 4 input Behringer UB802 that works well. 2 of the inputs have an added pre-amp stage for boosting microphone signals that I have found can be very needed on mic's. I also use a Digitech RP350 as an effects unit. It is designed for guitar input, and provides some nice effects, in stereo. It also acts as a standard 16-bit USB audio interface, I tried it once or twice and it worked great. But mostly I run that into my mixer, then into a 24-bit PCI card on a desktop for recording. The mixer is nice in that it allows me to find just the right level coming in to the audio interface, and I can tap other things into it - like headphones. I think the 24-bit interface gets me a bit more headroom/quality.

I am a fan of minimalist approach, so in some ways these things are just added junk in-between my computer and guitar. They take up room, more cables, bla. And I think the 24-bits versus 16 may not be that important. But, keep in mind most audio interfaces stock on laptops and PC's are commodity(junk?), so using a higher quality interface is generally needed. Also a dry guitar signal is pretty boring and some effects can really make a difference. And it can be nice to be able to hear your guitar with the effects immediately, without having to depend on the PC to return it, or apply effects. Actually it makes sense to do all the processing in the PC, but that requires a lot of real time software tweaking that I have limited patience for(I just want to play guitar and have it work). So even though I believe the effects unit is just one more signal path to degrade the sound, it is an appliance that makes my life easier and not need to mess with the software so much.

A headphone out on a guitar amp or effect could be routed to the PC input as a cheap pre-amp. Now generally I don't think you need to worry too much about blowing your laptop by hooking up things like this to the PC audio interface, but you never know, a little static electricity can zap things out. That would be another reason to use a USB audio adapter, provides some protection. The USB guitar interface you linked to might be a reasonable low-budget thing to try, something designed for an electric guitar at least.

I've been wanting to pick up a nice 24-bit interface like focusrite or presonus for laptop use, but just haven't been able to bring myself to springing $100+ bucks for one yet. I saw a 2-ch presonus for $100 at a music store the other day, tempted.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by English Guy »

You should easily be able to get enough volume using your input with an electric guitar. You may need to play with the settings in alsamixer
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by sadko4u »

I wouldn't recommend to use built-in sound interfaces. Better use external interfaces with instrument input.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by sysrqer »

Thanks for the input everyone, especially kbongosmusic, that's exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I will most likely buy a interface then and will check out all the suggestions listed here.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by sysrqer »

glowrak guy wrote:Used Fender Mustang 1 v.1 usb modeling amp/interface run $60 used,
new Mustang 1 v.2 is $120 new,
Is this what you are talking about http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Mustang1V2 ?
I'm sure it sounds fantastic but it wouldn't be an option for me, I would have to shp it to my country and pay import taxes, both at least partly based on weight so it would turn out quite pricy for me.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by sysrqer »

beck wrote: @sysrqer
I forgot forgot to emphasize an important consideration. A consideration to launch a discussion about will be endless. :roll: But i still (only) mention it.
Analogue or digital? Which direction will you go, and for how long within your system?

There are pro's to digital record digital output of your interface.
But there are also some to give about digital recording an analogue signal coming from an analogue interface.

On consideration is that analogue has the clearest and widest frequency range. Analogue still has the highest bitrate, unreachable for digital gear.
And i never ever have any latency problems (quite common with digital gear).
IMHO both good to conciser arguments when recording analogue instruments and vocals. Bad arguments for digital and midi compozers.

The last one is my setup. All analogue, until recording which is digital (and after that editing and mastering also).
I don't really want to say too much on this subject because I know (from previous discussions) that we share different outlooks. My considerations are roughly in this order: cheapness, sound quality, ease of use. This dictates my direction with regards to amps, mixers, fx etc.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by English Guy »

If you can figure that input correctly you should be able to record with your soundcard. A guitar is line level and there is no need for the pre amp that mic level uses or the noise it introduces.

The important thing in recording guitar direct is speaker (aka cabinet) emulation. The speaker shapes the sound of the guitar which is why it sucks when that is missing.

You can either get this by routing through guitarix or adding it in your DAW with a cabinet emulation plug in. Tube emulation etc can also do a lot. There are more effects than you can shake a stick at. The sky's the limit and the world is your oyster.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by folderol »

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that 'traditional' guitar pickups are designed to work with valve amplifiers with input impedances in the 1M ohm range. Audio interface cards rarely exceed about 100k. This can make a significant difference to the response of the pickup.
Whether plugins can realistically compensate for this is left as an exercise for the student :lol:

P.S.
I've seen tiny D.I.Y. FET buffer amps that fit in an XLR and draw from the 48V phantom mic power.
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Re: Buying a guitar - how to record it?

Post by kbongosmusic »

@sysrqer, do you have any desire to DIY with soldering iron? @folderol mentions 'tiny D.I.Y. FET buffer amps'. And you can either buy these things pre-made, or if you like DIY they are do-able to build one from scratch. While generally I think it is best to just buy this sort of thing(like that usb audio interface with guitar input). But sometimes DIY is fun too - build exactly what you want. Like with cables - I often just make my own. I have some interest to experiment with adding a preamp at the guitar. There are proponents of this, the guitar pickup system is pretty rudimentary(back when they used valves, eh, @folderol ;). You gotta wonder why they still build em like they do 50 years ago.

Most systems use little op-amp chips targeted at this audio pre-amp work. Another method is simple one or two transistor circuits. A few years back I was playing around with one transistor JFET's circuits to use with pizeo pickup elements. Most low-cost mics(electret condenser) have a built in JFET transistor. Typically a low cost 'Mic' 1/8" input jack(say on a laptop) includes a Bias(resistor 2k to 10k pullup to say 5v). This is targeted at these low cost mic JFET to provide a cheap phantom power if you will. While a 'line' input will typically not have this bias, and also offer stereo while Mic input is normally just mono. Try to use stereo recording to any advantage you can. Another reason laptop audio-in is bad - typically just 'Mic' in(mono), no line in(stereo).

Actually it looks like valves are not going away. I hadn't been in a music store for a good decade, but I was out of town on vacation recently, and stopped in a music store to get a guitar in my hands. I was surprised to see a lot of the new fender amps with tubes/valves in them. I don't even use an amp much anymore. While I do have some fond memories of old tube amps, I think it's mostly hype/marketing.
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