DAW: Dynebolic or Ubuntu Studio with M-Audio sound device

[jukingeo]

Hello all,

I have been experimenting with Linux for a digital audio workstation for the past four months now. For the first month I mostly struggled with sound issues and was also finding out which distributions I like best.

I STILL am struggling with sound issues, but I have narrowed my distribution choices to the following: Ubuntu Studio, Dynebolic, and Puppy Linux as my choices.

So far I like Ubuntu Studio the best because I started with it. Out of all the distributions it appears that Ubuntu is the easiest to use. My goal is to break away from Windows and one of the first tasks I have accomplished to achieve that goal was to handle all my "housekeeping" (emails, open office, internet, on-line audio streaming). In this case, Ubuntu stands out as a strong contender.

I like Puppy Linux because it is very small and compact. I can do all my housekeeping here too, but the "console" (Puppy's version of the Terminal in Ubuntu), isn't very easy to work with. Also Puppy doesn't have a version that is automatically set up for DAW based applications. I like Puppy because you can put the whole operating system WITH applications on a standard memory stick and boot from that. I can see quite a few live applications where that will come in handy. However, as with Ubuntu Studio, I still have sound issues in Puppy.

Finally we come to Dynebolic. I really like this distribution as it comes the closest to what I would like to do. While not as endowed as Ubuntu Studio, it is more compact and it also comes set up to handle video editing as well with Cinelerra, no less. Navigation is a bit unconventional in Dynebolic and I am not sure if it will handle my housekeeping tasks that well, but should I get my audio problems out of the way, I think I may end up liking this distribution the best for a DAW application. It is pretty lightweight. Definitely smaller than Ubuntu Studio, but larger than Puppy.

I have tried 64 Studio, but found it to have a VERY clunky file management system and that is a problem for doing housekeeping work. Because I couldn't find my way around it easily I gave up on it quickly.

The only other distribution that caught my attention was Jack Lab, but two things prevented me from trying it out. 1) It is a Red Hat based distribution of which I am not familiar with at all. 2) Support for it isn't very strong. However, it does come with the promise that many more sound devices can work with it out of the box.

So with my contenders out of the way, next comes the sound issue:

Out of all the trials and tribulations I had with getting a Linux based DAW to operate on my machine, nothing gave (is giving) me more headache than getting the sound to work properly. Obviously...you can't have a DAW without sound.

When I started with Ubuntu/Ubuntu Studio (Hardy Heron version). I had a Sound Blaster X-Fi on my machine. For the first two months on Ubuntu, I attempted and finally did get this card to work. It did work well and I did get many audio applications to work. However, I had latency issues, and the kernel build for the X-Fi under Ubuntu is NOT using the Real Time Kernel. Given that and the fact that the X-Fi would not work with any other application, I swapped the card out with a temporary Sound Blaster Live.

The Sound Blaster Live required the least work to get going and I had audio in all three distributions I mentioned above however, the SB Live refused to work with Jack, and it was fixed at 48k frequency of which could not be changed. I found this problem to be the case with most of the SB Live and Audigy devices on the ALSA list. For some reason, they only allowed 48k playback. Notice I only said PLAYBACK. Yes, that was another issue as well...I couldn't record in ANY distribution with the SB Live.

So now I pulled the SB Live out and did much research in audio devices that run under Linux/ALSA. My choice was the Echo Mona. This is a pro device which has 4 pre-amped inputs and 6 outputs. All in/outs have XLR jacks for balanced and 1/4" inputs and RCA outputs for unbalanced. I got the Echo Mona to first work in Windows XP to make sure the device was fully operational. It was and I must say it has a great sound quality to it. Then I attempted to get the sound device to work in Linux.

So the past two months I been trying to get the Mona to work in ANY of the three Linux distributions I have on my system. It doesn't work with any of them. Both Puppy Linux and Dynebolic see the card, but no audio is produced. Ubuntu Studio didn't even see the card.

I tried to use the ALSA website information to help install the device both in Ubuntu and Puppy and the install procedure didn't work. In fact in Ubuntu Studio, I used FOUR different procedures to get the card to work and all failed.

My last resort was to contact the ALSA driver developer for my Mona sound device. I have talked to him about 3 times in the course of a month. Needless to say, it is very SLOW going. My last (2) emailsl to the developer has gone unanswered for over a week.

I am now totally fed up with attempting to get sound to work in Linux and I am going to try one more thing. I am ONLY going to use a sound device that is know to be AUTOMATICALLY recognized and configured by most distributions as the Sound Blaster Live is.

So it was back to more research and comparison wars of automatically detected PROFESSIONAL audio sound devices. When the dust settled, I found that two cards emerged as the most used and were automatically detected and configured. Those to companies were RME and M-Audio.

I was never a fan of M-Audio products outside of their Midisport interfaces, but after seeing the massive price tags on the RME cards, it really doesn't leave me with much choice. So I decided to settle with an M-Audio production.

My choice was the Delta line as that seems to be what most people are using in Linux for audio recording applications. I am mostly interested in the Delta 44 or 66.

So my question is this:

If you are using an M-Audio Delta series sound device, what distribution are you using with it and what audio applications are you using? I am of course mostly interested in those that managed to get an M-Audio Delta series device to work with either Ubuntu Studio, Puppy Linux, Dynebolic, and also Jack Lab. I would like to know if the card was automagically detected or if you had to do anything to get it running. If you did have to do anything, was it easy going or did you have to do major hoop jumping?

Thank You,

Geo

[studio32]

Wow that must be frustrating for you... what a pity, but I hope in the end you learned a lot from it...

About distributions... difficult...Ubuntu is good for beginners, but I'm most satisfied with Debian testing. It's a bit difficult to configure sometimes (ubuntu works more out of the box), but the gui's in Ubuntu can also frustrate things in audio is my experience. Debian doesn't have a rt-kernel. So I use the one of 64studio:
http://renewableenergyinsurance.com/node/91

It's a bit outdated but ok. To make from your debian box a DAW, you could take a look at:
http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=214

About the soundcard. I did choose a m-audio audiophile 24/96 pci, because I wanted a card which will be always supported by linux and I think you've a good chance this card is... For the Delta's take a look at the midi ports/ I/O and if you need it (44 doesn't have it, 66 has it I think...) And I don't know if the Delta 1010LT is still supported on linux...

I also have an maudio dmp3 preamp which is a good one in that price class...

Take a look at the hardware part in our wiki!
and this could be useful: http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=514

If you want a light system, you could choose for a WM like fluxbox or openbox.... or a combi with flux/openbox and gnome or kde...

Good luck!!!

[jukingeo]

Wow that must be frustrating for you... what a pity, but I hope in the end you learned a lot from it...

Yes, it is extremely frustrating. I consider myself above average with computers as well so for someone that is average or less than average...well, lets just say those are the people that probably have given up on using anything sound intensive with Linux.

I have many friends that did try Linux and then went back to Windows. I can now understand why.

About distributions... difficult...Ubuntu is good for beginners, but I'm most satisfied with Debian testing. It's a bit difficult to configure sometimes (ubuntu works more out of the box), but the gui's in Ubuntu can also frustrate things in audio is my experience. Debian doesn't have a rt-kernel. So I use the one of 64studio:
http://renewableenergyinsurance.com/node/91

Ubuntu DOES have an RT kernel. But my initial problems with the X-Fi is that it required a kernel rebuild and that rebuild version was NOT rt. Because of that, I had latency issues with the X-Fi and abandoned the sound card because the X-Fi will not work in other distributions. But I do have Ubuntu Studio on my machine right now, and it does have an RT kernel.

It's a bit outdated but ok. To make from your debian box a DAW, you could take a look at:
http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=214

I'll take a peek later on. Thanx.

About the soundcard. I did choose a m-audio audiophile 24/96 pci, because I wanted a card which will be always supported by linux and I think you've a good chance this card is... For the Delta's take a look at the midi ports/ I/O and if you need it (44 doesn't have it, 66 has it I think...) And I don't know if the Delta 1010LT is still supported on linux...

The M-Audio Audiophile IS a part of the Delta line. Since my latest fiasco with a 'so called' ALSA supported device (but not company supported), I pretty much said "that is it, I want something now that will be automagically detected and requires either little or better yet, no configuration. My discoveries came up with M-Audio and RME (Diamond as well...but they are more Sound Blaster like than something for a DAW). Sadly M-Audio represents the low end, and RME represents the extreme high end (cost wise as well as quality). There is nothing in the middle ground. So M-Audio seems to be my last choice.

I ended up purchasing the Delta 44 through Musician's Friend today. Because it is a new purchase, if it doesn't work, I can send it back for a refund. But this is the last straw. If it doesn't work, then I am going to go back to Windows for DAW work and I am just going to forget about trying to do audio recording work with Linux. I will still use Linux, but primarily for housekeeping work and basic sound off the Soundblaster Live (which I know does work...except with Jack).

I also have an maudio dmp3 preamp which is a good one in that price class...

Is that that "Audio Buddy" thing? If so, I did read about that. I do have a Mackie mixer I can use for pre-amp if I have to...but that is part of my live rig. So it is somewhat of an inconvenience.

Take a look at the hardware part in our wiki!
and this could be useful: http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=514

If you want a light system, you could choose for a WM like fluxbox or openbox.... or a combi with flux/openbox and gnome or kde...

Good luck!!!

Well, I will see where this takes me and hopefully I will have luck with the M-Audio card this time around. It has been rough seas with Linux and audio though.

Thanx,

Geo

[studio32]

Geo,

Keep us up to date... we hope you'll make it with audio and linux... with an delta 44 I think it shouldn't be a problem (although delta 66 has a better midi in support I think...)

[jukingeo]

Hello all,

Well, as they say the third time is the charm! My M-Audio Delta 44 arrived earlier in the week and I pulled the Echo Mona out and up it went on Ebay. I put the M-Audio Delta 44 into my system and first installed it into Windows XP. Once I had it set up there and got sound out of it for my Windows apps, I rebooted my machine and booted up Ubuntu studio. I crossed my fingers really really hard (with eyes shut on top of it).

To my amazement, when the the log in screen came up in Ubuntu Studio, I heard a little 'bleep'. After I logged in, I heard the system start up sound. I HAD sound! I immediately went on to the internet and logged onto YouTube. Streaming audio worked fine as well. (I was going to test games but forgot I didn't load any on as of yet).

Next was MiXXX. THAT worked fine.

Finally came Jack. That too worked! (Albeit it wasn't working in real-time mode, but I fixed that with a simple adjustment in the permissions section of Ubuntu Studio). I tried all the sample rate settings from 8k to 96k and it recognizes them all (The Soundblaster Live was stuck on 48k, so that is why I checked this).

Next I wanted to see if the Delta 44 would also work with Puppy Linux. So I rebooted my machine and then booted up Puppy (yes, I have a triple boot machine). Everything worked there too! I have Jack with Puppy on a USB and tested that next. It worked great with RT! My jaw just hit my desk!

I couldn't believe after four months of headaches I just had to plug this card in and it WAS truly automagically recognized by my system.

The only thing I didn't test the card out with yet is Dynebolic. I have Dyne on a Live CD only as of now, but I am going to try it out later. I am hoping I will have the same results with that distro as I did with Ubuntu Studio and Puppy.

So overall this is really great news that I do have sound in just about all my applications. As I said, I have not tested games as of yet, but will do so soon. But my main concern was to get Jack working.

Mixxx works now both with ALSA alone and with Jack (it still works better with Jack though).

Granted, I only had made some early tests with the Delta 44, but so far, so good! FINALLY!

Geo,

Keep us up to date... we hope you'll make it with audio and linux... with an delta 44 I think it shouldn't be a problem (although delta 66 has a better midi in support I think...)

The Delta 66 doesn't have midi and nor does the Delta 44. The differences between the two devices is that the Delta 66 has SPDIF in/out, the Delta 44 doesn't. The Delta 1010 (both versions) does have midi and SPDIF. All of the Delta line doesn't have mic preamps (with the exception of the 1010LT).

Well, as I said above, so far so good. I can't believe how painless this card was to set up when I had so much grief with the past three audio devices I had on my system:

1) Sound Blaster X-Fi (original sound device on my machine, worked great with Windows, but only could get it to work in Ubuntu Studio, it wasn't recognized in any other Linux distro I have.

2) Sound Blaster Live (DELL OEM). This card did work in all the Linux distributions I have and it was automagically detected as well, however, there were problems. For one the card could only be set to 48k. It would record and it gave me major problems with Ubuntu Studio's Jack. It had a severe case of the x-runs! I had varied results with Jack in other distros. Mostly x-runs and latency issues. So out the card went.

3) Echo Corporation Mona: This was the first device I did some good research on. I found that a few people did get the card to operate in the past (not the Mona itself, but other devices in the series). The card isn't automatically recognized and requires drivers from ALSA in order to work. I ended up having nothing but trouble in getting the card to work. I went through four tutorials, and I even spoke to the developer of the ALSA driver for my card. He was of very little help and in the end stopped answering my emails. This card ended up being my worst pick for Linux because I couldn't get it to work in any distribution AT ALL!

4) M-Audio Delta 44: Just plugged the card in and booted into my Linux distributions. No drivers to install, no procedure to follow, nothing. Truly Plug-N-Play.

The only caveat I found with the Delta 44 is that there really isn't a nice gui mixer that seems to work with it. Now by gui mixer, I mean something that does the job of the terminal based AlsaMixer, but in gui format. Basically something to manipulate the sound within the Linux distribution itself. Obviously with most Jack based programs, this isn't an issue because programs such as Mixxx and Ardour have their own audio controls.

With some of the other sound devices above, I could get a gui mixer to work, but I have not found one that works with the Delta 44. Anyone have suggestions?

So all in all, so far so good! Later on today I am going to check the Delta 44 with Dynebolic to see how I make out there.

Geo

[studio32]

@ Geo, Great to read this... You see, you need hardware which is supported otherwise it becomes difficult for the software...

Good luck becoming a real linuxmusician

[raboof]

Good to hear an (eventually and tentatively) success story

something that does the job of the terminal based AlsaMixer, but in gui format.

Have you tried gnome-alsamixer? .

[studio32]

Good to hear an (eventually and tentatively) success story

something that does the job of the terminal based AlsaMixer, but in gui format.

Have you tried gnome-alsamixer? .

or
alsamixergui or maybe a card specific tool?

[thorgal]

if the Delta 44 has the same chip as the 1010 (ice1712), you need the GUI app called envy24control (it's in alsa-tools-gui or alsa-tools, don't remember). This mixer is THE mixer for the Deltas, forget about generic GUIs like kmix or gnome-mixer.

Of course, if the chip is not what I mentioned, I may be wrong.

If you can use envy24control, be sure to read the notes on the alsa web-pages. I was a bit confused the 1st time but it's actually quite OK once you understand it (the 1010LT I used to own has hardware monitoring on two channels, and the mixer had options to switch it on/off. Doing so affected the way you used sliders - thus the confusing part).

[studio32]

If you can use envy24control, be sure to read the notes on the alsa web-pages. I was a bit confused the 1st time but it's actually quite OK once you understand it (the 1010LT I used to own has hardware monitoring on two channels, and the mixer had options to switch it on/off. Doing so affected the way you used sliders - thus the confusing part).

check: http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=543

[jukingeo]

Hello guys,

Thanx for the info. There were quite a few replies so I will try to address them all in one reply:

I have tried alsamixer-gui, and it doesn't work. I have not tried gnome-alsamixer yet. I have heard about and looked at Envy24control as it comes with Ubuntu Studio (but none of my other distros). However, I didn't muck around with it because I have heard some people have tried to use it with their delta cards and it ended up knocking the audio out or causing other problems. So I didn't bother with it. It is a shame too that I read about that problem because it looks like a cool application. So unless I find out some more about it or what to do to avoid those problems, I will not touch it. At any rate I don't know if Envy24 can be used in Puppy Linux or Dynebolic.

Studio32: Where would I get a card specific tool? I searched the Synaptic repositories (Ubuntu) and didn't come up with anything.

[studio32]

I have tried alsamixer-gui, and it doesn't work. I have not tried gnome-alsamixer yet. I have heard about and looked at Envy24control as it comes with Ubuntu Studio (but none of my other distros). However, I didn't muck around with it because I have heard some people have tried to use it with their delta cards and it ended up knocking the audio out or causing other problems. So I didn't bother with it. It is a shame too that I read about that problem because it looks like a cool application. So unless I find out some more about it or what to do to avoid those problems, I will not touch it. At any rate I don't know if Envy24 can be used in Puppy Linux or Dynebolic.

Studio32: Where would I get a card specific tool? I searched the Synaptic repositories (Ubuntu) and didn't come up with anything.

I meant something like envy24control which is in alsa-tools

Code: Select all

aptitude search alsa-tools
i   alsa-tools                                                     - Console based ALSA utilities for specific hardware
i   alsa-tools-gui                                                 - GUI based ALSA utilities for specific hardware

Code: Select all

aptitude install alsa-tools alsa-tools-gui

you can start it with

Code: Select all

$ envy24control

I think it IS in any linux distro...

[thorgal]

man, type 'lspci' in a terminal, spot the line about your audio controller (not the onboard but the Delta of course), see if it mentions ice1712 or envy24. If it does, go ahead, use envy24control, that's THE hardware mixer for your card. Don't be afraid, you hear a lot of crap on the net, but nothing beats YOUR own experience. You've got that far to get a working card under linux, why do you hesitate to use the only mixer app that will control it fully ?

[jukingeo]

Hello,

I meant something like envy24control which is in alsa-tools

Code: Select all

aptitude search alsa-tools
i   alsa-tools                                                     - Console based ALSA utilities for specific hardware
i   alsa-tools-gui                                                 - GUI based ALSA utilities for specific hardware

Code: Select all

aptitude install alsa-tools alsa-tools-gui

you can start it with

Code: Select all

$ envy24control

I think it IS in any linux distro...

The Envy24control is already installed in Ubuntu Studio. It is in my selection of audio programs, I just didn't muck with it mainly because I don't know how to set my card up on it.

At any rate I am not sure if "Envy" can be set up in Puppy. Puppy uses different packages, it was originally a slackware based system. As far as Dynebolic goes, I am not sure what that is based on. I do have sound in that distribution, but I found out Cinelerra locks up in it. I think I would like to install Cinelerra on Ubuntu Studio and see how it works there. So I am not too concerned with Dynebolic at the moment. I mostly want to get Ubuntu and Puppy working 100%. However, in all three distributions, there is no master control of the sound within the system (outside of the text based Alsamixer). Ubuntu Studio seems to be the only one that has Envy pre-loaded. I will try Envy out in Ubuntu Studio, if and ONLY IF I know it will work and not lock things up (as I read in other posts).

man, type 'lspci' in a terminal, spot the line about your audio controller (not the onboard but the Delta of course), see if it mentions ice1712 or envy24. If it does, go ahead, use envy24control, that's THE hardware mixer for your card. Don't be afraid, you hear a lot of crap on the net, but nothing beats YOUR own experience. You've got that far to get a working card under linux, why do you hesitate to use the only mixer app that will control it fully ?

Well, the good news is that my computer doesn't have on-board sound. I know that now adays that is standard, but my machine is already 4 years old and it came with a Sound Blaster Live which was a card. So, in short, the Delta 44 is the only sound device on my machine. As for being afraid...well, you have to understand that I been trying to fix sound issues within Linux for FOUR months. So now that I have sound, I would like to be a bit careful about what I do. I have read in the Ubuntu forums about someone that also had a working Delta 44 and then tried to configure Envy and ended up knocking out sound completely. So I would like to avoid that and end up back at square one.

However, as of now Puppy isn't as critical and if you (or someone) could tell me how to set up Envy in Puppy Linux, then I can use that distribution for my experimenting. If something gets whacked out there, it isn't as bad. Right now I want to start using some of the applications in Ubuntu Studio and get a feel for what I can do there.

So far I been playing around with Mixxx and it is a great program. Next up is Ardour and Rosegarden. Supposedly these two programs along with a looping program should be similar to Ableton's Live. So I been waiting 4 months to check that out.

So forgive me if I am a bit cautious.

Next question. The Delta 44 ran right out of the box, but I did notice on the M-Audio website that they DO provide a Linux driver. Should I download that driver and install it? Perhaps it has an audio mixing application custom made for the Delta series.


Thanx,
Geo

[thorgal]

the ALSA driver is fine, don't dload anything. In a terminal, type :

lsmod | grep ice1712

if you get some output like snd-ice1712 and others, you're in business.

Then, if you have envy24control in your executable PATH (/usr/bin most likely), just type

envy24control

in the terminal. If puppy linux comes with the alsa-tools or alsa-tools-gui package installed, it will be there.

It will configure itself depending on the Delta model you have (number of IOs). You can fire up as many GUI as you want, it will connect to your hardware alright, so you can control your card levels from every virtual screen you can work from.

IIRC, envy24control has an ADC (analog preamps) and DAC (analog outputs) level setup window, a mixer window where you can set the PCM levels, and some global conf checkboxes. I think everything will be set to 0 by default or to some reasonable level (it increments from 0 to 127 but I really remember vaguely, it's been more than a year since I used it and only for 2 weeks). You won't fuck up your card, you can only fuck up the mixer setting, which will not be damageable for your card but will of course annoy you because you will think you had screwed up sound in linux once more. No, it will work. Just do it! now! and open the bottle of champagne after that

Again, read about how to use envy24control, you may be a little confused at the beginning but it is straightforward once you understand its design.