mixer ideas!

Support & discussion regarding DAWs and MIDI sequencers.

Moderators: MattKingUSA, khz

User avatar
forestandgarden
Established Member
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 9:18 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by forestandgarden »

If my understanding is correct, then Harrison are adding a proprietary part of code to the Ardour opensource project, and supporting Ardour substantially in return. Apart from minor UI adaptations, Mixbus are having their own engine, inside Ardour releases that are public code, but specifically made to accomodate the Mixbus engine and probably useless without it. Apparantly, Mixbus is running the identical EQ, Comp/Lim and Saturation FX, that are already built into the channels & buses, more efficiently in the engine itself, while in Ardour, you'd have to add these processors to each strip, and the engine would treat them as plugins each with no synergy gained from identical, pre-defined fx.

On the upside, an empty Ardour session will hardly consume resources, an empty Mixbus session will, so it won't be before a certain scale of project that the design advantage of pre-defined, integrated processors is coming to bear.

some of my stuff is ending up here , on clyp.it , on youtube , and you can love me at liberapay

User avatar
funkmuscle
Established Member
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:30 pm
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by funkmuscle »

forestandgarden wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:41 am

If my understanding is correct, then Harrison are adding a proprietary part of code to the Ardour opensource project, and supporting Ardour substantially in return. Apart from minor UI adaptations, Mixbus are having their own engine, inside Ardour releases that are public code, but specifically made to accomodate the Mixbus engine and probably useless without it. Apparantly, Mixbus is running the identical EQ, Comp/Lim and Saturation FX, that are already built into the channels & buses, more efficiently in the engine itself, while in Ardour, you'd have to add these processors to each strip, and the engine would treat them as plugins each with no synergy gained from identical, pre-defined fx.

On the upside, an empty Ardour session will hardly consume resources, an empty Mixbus session will, so it won't be before a certain scale of project that the design advantage of pre-defined, integrated processors is coming to bear.

Sorry I tried replying to this but I clicked the wrong button so it just looks like I repeated what you said.

The whole purpose behind this thread was not explained properly so I do apologize. All I wanted to say was how about a DW that just opens up and it's ready to go? You have a four-band parametric EQ with high pass and low pass filters a noise gate and a couple of compressors to choose from? Right out of the gate you're set to go and if none of those things on the mixer can fulfill what you need on a certain track then you can go to the outboard which they do in real studios or plugins? Just instead of a dry clean slate especially for somebody new to music, everybody has seen what a mixing console look like either watching TV or a movie or if you musician and you've been in the studio. I know for me way back because I'm up there in age I'm used to seeing the consoles so when I came to computers I didn't know what I was looking at.

But if the average new guy the audio opens up a DAW and everything is there to go that's a great way to start and that would encourage them to keep moving on and then eventually they'll learn about plugins and all that but when you give them something to run with I think that makes sense because when I saw the 32C when I won it, I was like this is a game changer.

One thing I did notice about it it was that putting in tracks that were recorded in safer instance Reaper sounded warmer with a more saturated sound. It's funny that I'm saying that now because I just watched a video just one of the shorts on YouTube where a guy said you want to automatically get that analog sound and all he did was put a Pultec EQ plug in emulator on the master bus and then he did the AB and you can hear the difference.

But I'm not going for that I'm just simply saying and I may be contradicting what I said earlier because everyone was coming at me and I was losing my train of thought Yes again age lol But imagine a DAW where you just launched that and you click on the mixer and you see these knobs are to turn that would alter your sound I think that's amazing. I know when I went from analog to digital and I opened up a DAW I didn't know what that heck I was looking at. The thing is I think everyone musicians or not we have all seen what a mixing console look like so for a new guy deciding that hey man I should just dabble in music and he opens up a DW that just reminds him of mixing causes that he seen on TV commercials or in movies or in TV shows or maybe even in person, that sense of excitement wanting to record music just heightens. At least that's what happened for me and that's why I suggested this. Yes it would be nice to have that analog sound but as somebody said earlier who wants to sound like the '70s and hey that's that dude's prerogative but after that person said that I decided to look into all the electronic music all the EDM stuff that seems that everybody wants that saturated tape analog sound so but that's not the reason behind this even though I did contradict myself earlier. I just meant a DW that's fresh out of the box with an equalizer strip a compressor and noise gate.

User avatar
Largos
Established Member
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:21 pm
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by Largos »

imagine a DAW where you just launched that and you click on the mixer and you see these knobs are to turn that would alter your sound I think that's amazing.

You can do that in Ardour by creating a template and having the plugins in the mixer strip set with inline controls showing. If your issue is you want a mixer to also look like a console, then I don't agree with that. I think UI in computers should be made for using on a computer not so older people don't get spooked by seeing something unfamiliar. :D

User avatar
sunrat
Established Member
Posts: 1010
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:08 pm
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 270 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by sunrat »

funkmuscle wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:08 am

I just meant a DW that's fresh out of the box with an equalizer strip a compressor and noise gate.

Just like Mixbus then?! :mrgreen:

User avatar
GMaq
Established Member
Posts: 2902
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:42 pm
Has thanked: 549 times
Been thanked: 614 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by GMaq »

Largos wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:55 am

I think UI in computers should be made for using on a computer not so older people don't get spooked by seeing something unfamiliar. :D

:lol:

User avatar
funkmuscle
Established Member
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:30 pm
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by funkmuscle »

Largos wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:55 am

imagine a DAW where you just launched that and you click on the mixer and you see these knobs are to turn that would alter your sound I think that's amazing.

You can do that in Ardour by creating a template and having the plugins in the mixer strip set with inline controls showing. If your issue is you want a mixer to also look like a console, then I don't agree with that. I think UI in computers should be made for using on a computer not so older people don't get spooked by seeing something unfamiliar. :D

Damn yeah, I completely forgot about that in line thing. I'm going to mess with that for a bit and see what I can get.

User avatar
funkmuscle
Established Member
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:30 pm
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by funkmuscle »

GMaq wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:39 pm
Largos wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:55 am

I think UI in computers should be made for using on a computer not so older people don't get spooked by seeing something unfamiliar. :D

:lol:

:lol:
You could be right because I would never touch one of those Kemper amplifiers because it actually looks like something you would see on Doctor who.
Also they are still putting out amp Sims looking like an amplifier And a lot of people still get drawn to the mixing strip like SSL instead of a computer so I guess they are still catering to old boys like myself :lol:
But that inline info a completely forgot that was there.
Still laughing at the old guy line. 😂

merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1430
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 258 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by merlyn »

Out in the world (Mac and Windows land) the big three DAWs are Pro Tools, Ableton, and Logic. I imagine Pro Tools for recording real instruments, Ableton for bangin' beats and Logic for the technologically challenged who have to use a Mac. None of those are like Mixbus, with its mixing desk paradigm.

You seem to be asking why this paradigm isn't more popular. It's quite niche. Having the computer set up as a virtual mixing desk ready to go implies the creation has happened elsewhere. This could be by recording a band, or by producing a track in a loop masher like Ableton. Mixbus isn't really set up for writing a track -- it is for mixing (clue in the name).

For writing an EDM track, the usual compression, gates, and saturation may be less important than a glitcher or a filter sweep. Hence the big DAWs don't have effects on every track as the bread and butter processing may not be what a user wants for writing their track.

User avatar
funkmuscle
Established Member
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:30 pm
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by funkmuscle »

merlyn wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 12:43 pm

Out in the world (Mac and Windows land) the big three DAWs are Pro Tools, Ableton, and Logic. I imagine Pro Tools for recording real instruments, Ableton for bangin' beats and Logic for the technologically challenged who have to use a Mac. None of those are like Mixbus, with its mixing desk paradigm.

You seem to be asking why this paradigm isn't more popular. It's quite niche. Having the computer set up as a virtual mixing desk ready to go implies the creation has happened elsewhere. This could be by recording a band, or by producing a track in a loop masher like Ableton. Mixbus isn't really set up for writing a track -- it is for mixing (clue in the name).

For writing an EDM track, the usual compression, gates, and saturation may be less important than a glitcher or a filter sweep. Hence the big DAWs don't have effects on every track as the bread and butter processing may not be what a user wants for writing their track.

Mixbus I can do everything that those pro tools and logic and everything can do but what they cannot do is mix and master a song without the use of plugins whereas you open up Mixbus And you could record mix and master an entire song without having to touch one plugin so that puts it a step above all those you mentioned already but I'm not here talking about Mixbus But more of the design of it. As I said with it I could mix record and master without touching a plugin. I thought we're musicians? Do you know how much time I waste even while using Mixbus looking for certain plugins that I basically use the entire features that comes with it and as a last resort I would go look for a plugin and that alone wastes so much time.

But just imagine opening up your DAW and you're set to go. You spent safer instance a day recording a song and then the next day you're going to go mix it and all you have to do is open up your DAW and start. You don't have to hunt for plugins if you don't have to.

This is not an insult to EDM but I introduced my nephew to LMMS because he likes making dance music mostly r&B and hip hop but he does dabble in that and that's all he needed. I introduced him to Reaper and he said I'll only use that if I'm going to put any vocals to it but he said just for making beats I just need something simple so yes EDM you don't need to drop money on any of these things.

I remember I was at a famous studio here in Toronto watching the engineer mix the song and he was doing everything in pro tools. It was taking forever because he was constantly looking for this plugin or that plugin. I looked at him and said dude you've got a gigantic console right there with all these outboard effects why did into just start there and he looked at me and said you know what I should have because I'd probably would have been done because I'm wasting so much time here trying to find the right plugin using pro tools in the box.

He even said if he used the big console and the outboard he has to work with what he has there and he usually accomplished stuff a lot faster because he doesn't have a million plugins that he can get lost down the rabbit hole as he was doing. Next day I came in and he transferred everything to the mixing console and he was done in no time

And by the way he was mixing a hip hop song so everything was sampled and everything else so not that far different from EDM.

I think it creates an easier workflow but if you guys would rather go hunting for plugins instead of mixing your song then to each his own. I was just thinking of an easier workflow and we can argue this forever but when a thing is visually appetizing you tend to want to use it better. That's why they still make ampsims looking like a real amplifier.

Look at some of the drum Sims, they all have a real drum kit there and if it doesn't, it's being requested as in DG.

merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1430
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 258 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by merlyn »

Oh Steinberg, what did you do?

I don't know if you remember computer music before VST -- virtual studio technology. There was Csound, the interface for which was a pair of text files. Pieces were compiled from those text files, which could take ages on the machines of the time. There are things that can be done in Csound that can't be done in a real time system. A note envelope can be proportional to the length of a note as the lengths are known beforehand. With a real time system, it can only react in the moment.

Audio engineers were insulted that they might have to learn something new that didn't involve XLR cables. Steinberg bridged this gap with VST. "You don't have to learn anything new, it's all the old stuff you're used to."

There's nothing wrong with this paradigm, but it has led to plugins being faithful (or not) recreations of ancient hardware. Did audio electronic design really peak sometime in the distant past? It implies that digital is fundamentally crap, and we need to analogue it up to get a decent sound.

User avatar
funkmuscle
Established Member
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:30 pm
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by funkmuscle »

Csound.. wow I forgot about that one and I was never ever able to use it.

As I said earlier I didn't explain myself properly. This has nothing to do with analog sound or anything like that it could be a gazillion percent digital I'm just saying wouldn't it be easier to just launch your DAW and start working if you are mixing something instead of trying to look for the perfect compressor or equalizer and like it or not, People are still driven by sight because if it wasn't why are all these big companies putting so much money into the UI? Airwindows for instance Chris keeps saying if you want something fancy this is open source you can put your own UI on it. For him to say that they must be a request for it so like anything if you look at an election for instance not everybody votes for the winner but they go with the majority and it seems like commercial companies don't get into business for us they get into make money so they will do whatever it takes to make the money.

And if everyone is honest with themselves if you look at something from Chris And you look at something from say LSP or from tramp, we would automatically click on the plugin from LSP or tramp because they are more appealing to the eyes. I'm going by if we knew nothing about these plugins and you had them in front of you. If anyone is honest they would go for the beautiful looking UI before they click on the plane air windows plugin. But I'm digressing here because this is not about that.

I started the whole thread the wrong way and I've corrected myself through it. It does not matter if it's analog or digital I am talking about easy workflow. Opening up a DAW and just start mixing. Once again open a DAW and just start mixing instead of opening a DAW and then start going through all the plug-in directories to see what plugin to go to. It's just easier in my opinion to just open and start working because at the end of the day it's all about doing the best for your project.

And by the way, the dudes that do EDM, I think that's a lot harder to do than recording live instruments and mixing them so big ups to you guys. I don't know how the heck you get that pumping thing no matter how much I've tried to do it because I wanted to incorporate it into some kind of industrial sounding metal but I could never get that pump the way you guys get it so much respect!

merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1430
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 258 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by merlyn »

I see what you're saying, and it's a valid point.

It sounds like you have too many plugins! :D When you're in the flow I don't think is the time to try out plugins. It could be an idea to make time to decide on your go-to plugins. Then you can put them in 'Favourites' and they're easy and quick to find. If you want plugins on every track, that can be done with templates.

Alternatively you could use Mixbus, and if that's working for you, great. I don't think the problems you're describing are that much of an issue, and that explains why most DAWs don't use the Mixbus design concept.

User avatar
funkmuscle
Established Member
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:30 pm
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by funkmuscle »

merlyn wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 4:24 pm

I see what you're saying, and it's a valid point.

It sounds like you have too many plugins! :D When you're in the flow I don't think is the time to try out plugins. It could be an idea to make time to decide on your go-to plugins. Then you can put them in 'Favourites' and they're easy and quick to find. If you want plugins on every track, that can be done with templates.

Alternatively you could use Mixbus, and if that's working for you, great. I don't think the problems you're describing are that much of an issue, and that explains why most DAWs don't use the Mixbus design concept.

Yeah, my fault on how I started the tread. I wasn't clear.. I meant for it to say wouldn't it be easier if DAWs came with the mixing/tracking strips loaded with an EQ, Comp and Gate.. Just as a STARTING point then go from there ie: plugins etc..

Like everyone or most, we seem to have too many plugins. I see that in vids on YouTube that now many tutorials are about mix with stock plugins.

That's where I had the idea of DAWs having a basic stating point. Look at mixing consoles(NO NOT BECAUSE IT IS ANALOG) but just the consoles, they have EQs etc. aka a starting point, That way you start with that and then add plugins if necessary.

merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1430
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 258 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by merlyn »

Harrison still make hardware mixing desks, also known as consoles. Here's a picture of the EQ section:

Image

Normally the EQ section is out of the signal path, and is put into the circuit by pressing the 'EQ' button. So although the EQ is always available, it's not actually in the signal path unless needed.

User avatar
funkmuscle
Established Member
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:30 pm
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: mixer ideas!

Post by funkmuscle »

merlyn wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:14 pm

Harrison still make hardware mixing desks, also known as consoles. Here's a picture of the EQ section:

Image

Normally the EQ section is out of the signal path, and is put into the circuit by pressing the 'EQ' button. So although the EQ is always available, it's not actually in the signal path unless needed.

Actually you don't have to turn the equalizer or the compressor on you just start turning dials and automatically it comes on so you are kind of seeing what I'm saying. I open up the DAW as I just did right now because I'm currently mixing and I just put the tracks in that was sent to me from the rest of the guys and instantly I'm mixing without the thought of grabbing a plug-in yet.

So my topic is not actually based on Harrison's products but I use that as an example because that's what's available. Luna is another one but they are all emulating hardware but I don't care about that. What my topic was on was for the simplicity.

Wouldn't it be nice to just open up your DAW, load the tracks in and without even thinking of a plugin you can start mixing? That's basically my topic. If everybody likes to load the tracks and look at how pretty things are and then look for the prettiest plugin that is their prerogative but I was just thinking of workflow and not beautiful looking plugins.

I just mean you have everything there and you are correct it's not on yet so if I'm going to record I don't need to use any of that I will just record and then when I'm ready to mix I touch any of the buttons or dials and instantly if it's the equalizer that section is on and ready to go. Now isn't that a simple workflow?

So some people will look at what you just posted there and instantly jump to the conclusion that I'm talking about emulating some console out there but that's not the fact it could be a gazillion percent digital but workflow is workflow. Whether it's an analog system or a digital system. Isn't it just easier to just open up your DAW and load your tracks and start mixing if you are about to mix something? I'm not talking about recording here I'm talking about mixing at the moment.

I've never tried equalizing my guitar tracks that I'm about to record pre-recording with Mixbus10. I have the two notes Opus guitar whatever you call it I guess amplifier in a box which comes with a parametric EQ so it's a virtual guitar studio if you want to call it that so I do all my equalization there and then record so basically what I'm saying it doesn't matter how you record but once you have that DAW open and you're ready to do work you have everything at your fingertips instead of having to open up the folder or directory or whatever it's called to find all of your plugins and know it has nothing to do with having too many plugins even though I do have to many because if it's free I'm going to grab it. I've got like way over a thousand that I don't use but it's there and the reason why I don't use it because there's no need for all of them because the majority of everything I need is already in my DAW once I open it.

Post Reply