LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by bulevardi »

heroina wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 2:51 pm

Is introduction obligatory? Where can I find your introduction post? I did a search in -> viewforum.php?f=12, and did not find it? :wink:

It's not obligatory no.
Perhaps I'm going to introduce myself on 7th October 2024, when I'm here 10 years.

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Get In Touch^^
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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by Largos »

Audiojunkie wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 1:01 am

We are talking about FOSS, no? (Hint: It's in the title) "Free" Open Source Software -- Non-proprietary software, right? Proprietary software comes either as free or, you guessed it, at a cost. :| This conversation is about doing things, "the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!" Right? One "might" call that a purist ideology, no? Doing things "the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way", implies that using proprietary software (yes, even at cost) is the non-FOSS-GNU/LINUX way--meaning that those who purchase non-FOSS software or with closed source are doing it the non-LINUX way. We are Linux users that are doing it wrong. That's pretty much what that implies. My "counter-point" to the purist ideology--(yes, it was implied that the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way is the right way), is that there are many Linux users that don't agree that FOSS is the only right way, and we actively encourage developers that are considering supporting Linux to do so. Why would anyone in their right mind want to shun development for audio tools on Linux, even if it isn't FOSS?

And as for the word, "ignorant", there are more meanings to the word than just lacking knowledge. The informal usage of the word means discourteous or rude, which is what I felt was how the OP was acting. I felt that the OP came to the forum specifically with an agenda to make a point that everyone should be doing things, "the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way" and that everyone who felt differently were looked down as less of a Linux user, which I felt was somewhat rude for a new user.

OK. I've explained myself, and explained every bit why I DO know understand the argument. I'll leave it up to the jury to determine if you are right to say I don't understand the argument.

Oh, yes....... I need to get my little eye roll in as well... :roll:

:wink:

You said "an open source project, or a developer that charges a cost" as if those things are mutually exclusive, which they are not and it was not even being discussed.

Ignorant has multiple meanings, they are all insulting when being used to reference people. On the other hand, you're not being insulted by someone saying that license the software you like has problems and using market forces is the best way to convince developers to use better ones. Which I believe was heroina's point.

I don't know why we have to have this every time with people who use a bit of software coming to explain why they HAVE to use this software they NEED for x y and z. You can make great music with FOSS, there are many examples linked on this board. People are coming on here to explain why they like to use a specific bit of proprietary software instead of a bit of FOSS software and it makes no sense really because that preference has nothing to do with the license.

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by Audiojunkie »

Largos wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:58 am
Audiojunkie wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 1:01 am

We are talking about FOSS, no? (Hint: It's in the title) "Free" Open Source Software -- Non-proprietary software, right? Proprietary software comes either as free or, you guessed it, at a cost. :| This conversation is about doing things, "the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!" Right? One "might" call that a purist ideology, no? Doing things "the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way", implies that using proprietary software (yes, even at cost) is the non-FOSS-GNU/LINUX way--meaning that those who purchase non-FOSS software or with closed source are doing it the non-LINUX way. We are Linux users that are doing it wrong. That's pretty much what that implies. My "counter-point" to the purist ideology--(yes, it was implied that the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way is the right way), is that there are many Linux users that don't agree that FOSS is the only right way, and we actively encourage developers that are considering supporting Linux to do so. Why would anyone in their right mind want to shun development for audio tools on Linux, even if it isn't FOSS?

And as for the word, "ignorant", there are more meanings to the word than just lacking knowledge. The informal usage of the word means discourteous or rude, which is what I felt was how the OP was acting. I felt that the OP came to the forum specifically with an agenda to make a point that everyone should be doing things, "the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way" and that everyone who felt differently were looked down as less of a Linux user, which I felt was somewhat rude for a new user.

OK. I've explained myself, and explained every bit why I DO know understand the argument. I'll leave it up to the jury to determine if you are right to say I don't understand the argument.

Oh, yes....... I need to get my little eye roll in as well... :roll:

:wink:

You said "an open source project, or a developer that charges a cost" as if those things are mutually exclusive, which they are not and it was not even being discussed.

Ignorant has multiple meanings, they are all insulting when being used to reference people. On the other hand, you're not being insulted by someone saying that license the software you like has problems and using market forces is the best way to convince developers to use better ones. Which I believe was heroina's point.

I don't know why we have to have this every time with people who use a bit of software coming to explain why they HAVE to use this software they NEED for x y and z. You can make great music with FOSS, there are many examples linked on this board. People are coming on here to explain why they like to use a specific bit of proprietary software instead of a bit of FOSS software and it makes no sense really because that preference has nothing to do with the license.

There is nothing wrong with people wanting a specific piece of software. This board is for people that want to make music with Linux. There is nothing in the rules that says that they have to use FOSS only. If you can get it to run on Linux, it’s fair game. If a particular musician has a particular tool that they prefer to use, and they want to try to use it on Linux, there is nothing wrong with coming to this site to ask for help—there are currently areas within the Linux Music Production realm that are lacking—especially in the area of high quality acoustic or symphonic instrument libraries.

As for the word, “ignorant”, would it have been more acceptable for you if I had used the word, “rude”? It’s still referencing people. “How about the word, “impolite”, or the phrase, “without tact”? What word conveys my meaning to communicate to others my feelings that would be acceptable on a world-wide forum, in English, full of speakers of multiple world languages? If we are going to split hairs over colloquialisms, where does it end?

Now, I want to be very, very clear about this: I strongly believe that there is no “wrong” way to use Linux for music making. Using native-only apps is perfectly fine. Using WINE and yabridge and Windows applications is perfectly fine. Using WINEASIO and Windows apps is fine. Using tools made from closed source is perfectly fine. Using FOSS tools is perfectly fine. Heck, if someone wants to load up Waydroid into a VM and use Android audio programs from the google store on their Linux machine, I say more power to them! Linux is about freedom in more ways than just being able to access the code. Freedom is also about doing things the way you want to—sometimes, just because you can! There is no proper ONE way to use Linux. FOSS-GNU/LINUX is just one way to use Linux. There is no logical reason to talk down to others who don’t stick to pure FOSS software. Which was my whole point to begin with.

What we should be doing, is embracing Linux users who want to make music on Linux—regardless of how they are trying to go about doing it.

I honestly feel bad that we’ve allowed ourselves to get heated about all of this. I respect you Largos. You are a valued member of this forum. We can disagree on various points of ideology/philosophy, but we shouldn’t have to allow ourselves to form hard feelings toward each other. There is room for everyone: hardcore FOSS-GNU/LINUX idealists and pragmatic closed source customers, and everything in between.

:)

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by Largos »

@Audiojunkie I am not getting heated, don't worry. I just think that adjectives like "ignorant this" "hardcore that" "pragmatic the other" are needless and provocative. As you said, this forum has people whose first language is not English, of which the OP is one. So maybe a bit more leeway for a new poster?

You on the other hand are not a new poster :P

I do agree that all linux users should be welcome and I've not seen anyone that disagrees with that.

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by GMaq »

I'm having a deja vu... :D Starting with post 29 on page 3...

https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 8&start=30

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by Audiojunkie »

GMaq wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 2:46 am

I'm having a deja vu... :D Starting with post 29 on page 3...

https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 8&start=30

Wow! Interesting! It’s obvious that there are strongly-held opinions both ways regarding the subject, not just here, but everywhere. This makes me believe even stronger that this place needs to be supportive of all views. There’s no wrong way to Linux. 🙂

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by Impostor »

Hi Karl!

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by heroina »

GMaq wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 2:46 am

I'm having a deja vu... :D Starting with post 29 on page 3...

https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 8&start=30

So?

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by heroina »

bulevardi wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 7:13 am
heroina wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 2:51 pm

Is introduction obligatory? Where can I find your introduction post? I did a search in -> viewforum.php?f=12, and did not find it? :wink:

It's not obligatory no.
Perhaps I'm going to introduce myself on 7th October 2024, when I'm here 10 years.

Nice! 10 Years! It seams that there is no hurry for me! I'll might follow your example :)

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by heroina »

Audiojunkie wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 7:16 pm

DISCLAIMER: This post is NOT directed at any particular person or comment. I am providing a counter-point to the purist ideology

I don't understand the negativity towards developers providing software (that we need and want) at a cost. So many of us jump at the chance to get new software that does what we need--in my opinion, it absolutely doesn't matter to me whether it comes from an open source project, or a developer that charges a cost, as long as the support is good, and the copy protection is not anything other than a serial number that doesn't tie itself to anything, and the software doesn't phone home to authorize. I'm not against open source, but rather than being an ignorant idealist, I'm a realist. I like Linux, but I'm going to use the tools that I need--despite the purist ideology in this thread.

I can see the reason for a preference for fully supported open source packages. However, don't forget that tremendous number of open source projects that have been left to die on the road side.

Free Software -> Free as in freedom, and not free as in free beer ;-) -> fsf.org
Even open source, does not always mean free! It is just one of the criteria for free software. -> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-sou ... nt.html.en
Without those people, the ideas (die hard ideology) and the free licenses they have established, and fought for, there would have been no GNU/Linux and no linuxmusicians-forum.

So, I must be a ignorant idealist? WOW!

Do you consider your self free from idealism, or ideology? Hmmm,.. Do you, or for that matter anyone on this forum, consider himself free from philosophy, or some kind of beliefs? Free from any school of thought? Is it logical to think, that idealists, can not be realistic, or even practical? Really? And you call me ignorant? :D

Last edited by heroina on Fri May 17, 2024 8:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by Loki Harfagr »

this kind of logic usually ends down in a free for all, now back to the one and only crucial question "what's in a hero"?
until then don't feed the stuff standing on the bridge unless you're certain to hold a very good solo ;)

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by heroina »

Largos wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:58 am
Audiojunkie wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 1:01 am

We are talking about FOSS, no? (Hint: It's in the title) "Free" Open Source Software -- Non-proprietary software, right? Proprietary software comes either as free or, you guessed it, at a cost. :| This conversation is about doing things, "the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!" Right? One "might" call that a purist ideology, no? Doing things "the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way", implies that using proprietary software (yes, even at cost) is the non-FOSS-GNU/LINUX way--meaning that those who purchase non-FOSS software or with closed source are doing it the non-LINUX way. We are Linux users that are doing it wrong. That's pretty much what that implies. My "counter-point" to the purist ideology--(yes, it was implied that the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way is the right way), is that there are many Linux users that don't agree that FOSS is the only right way, and we actively encourage developers that are considering supporting Linux to do so. Why would anyone in their right mind want to shun development for audio tools on Linux, even if it isn't FOSS?

And as for the word, "ignorant", there are more meanings to the word than just lacking knowledge. The informal usage of the word means discourteous or rude, which is what I felt was how the OP was acting. I felt that the OP came to the forum specifically with an agenda to make a point that everyone should be doing things, "the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way" and that everyone who felt differently were looked down as less of a Linux user, which I felt was somewhat rude for a new user.

OK. I've explained myself, and explained every bit why I DO know understand the argument. I'll leave it up to the jury to determine if you are right to say I don't understand the argument.

Oh, yes....... I need to get my little eye roll in as well... :roll:

:wink:

You said "an open source project, or a developer that charges a cost" as if those things are mutually exclusive, which they are not and it was not even being discussed.

Ignorant has multiple meanings, they are all insulting when being used to reference people. On the other hand, you're not being insulted by someone saying that license the software you like has problems and using market forces is the best way to convince developers to use better ones. Which I believe was heroina's point.

I don't know why we have to have this every time with people who use a bit of software coming to explain why they HAVE to use this software they NEED for x y and z. You can make great music with FOSS, there are many examples linked on this board. People are coming on here to explain why they like to use a specific bit of proprietary software instead of a bit of FOSS software and it makes no sense really because that preference has nothing to do with the license.

Again! Thank you!

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by GMaq »

heroina wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 1:41 pm
GMaq wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 2:46 am

I'm having a deja vu... :D Starting with post 29 on page 3...

https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 8&start=30

So?

So... relevant to this topic, and further clarification of both positions...

BTW, I can't argue that Stallman and the FSF are not an important part of the history of Linux any more than I can argue that the Beatles are not part of the history of modern music, both are giants in their respective fields... but I would imagine Stallman himself would be equally if not more bothered if there was a lack of User choice than if his tenets were the only (pardon the word) 'canonical' way to approach using Linux..

Like free speech, often we have to cover our ears and are horrified about distasteful things yet we have to value and uphold the right of the speaker to say them. How could this forum represent FOSS and it's somewhat disunified concept of freedom without allowing all types of Users to converse?

Last edited by GMaq on Thu May 16, 2024 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by merlyn »

There isn't a sub-forum dedicated to libre software, but there is the Libre Music Challenge which shows what can be done with only FOSS.

There are some gaps in FOSS audio software. A major bummer is that the de facto sample library standard is Kontakt, which is proprietary. There's nothing like Melodyne for pitch correction, and there isn't anything like iZotope RX for cleaning up recordings. Sorry, that's the way it is.

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Re: LinuxMusicians the FOSS-GNU/LINUX way!

Post by Audiojunkie »

heroina wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 2:39 pm
Audiojunkie wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 7:16 pm

DISCLAIMER: This post is NOT directed at any particular person or comment. I am providing a counter-point to the purist ideology

I don't understand the negativity towards developers providing software (that we need and want) at a cost. So many of us jump at the chance to get new software that does what we need--in my opinion, it absolutely doesn't matter to me whether it comes from an open source project, or a developer that charges a cost, as long as the support is good, and the copy protection is not anything other than a serial number that doesn't tie itself to anything, and the software doesn't phone home to authorize. I'm not against open source, but rather than being an ignorant idealist, I'm a realist. I like Linux, but I'm going to use the tools that I need--despite the purist ideology in this thread.

I can see the reason for a preference for fully supported open source packages. However, don't forget that tremendous number of open source projects that have been left to die on the road side.

Free Software -> Free as in freedom, and not free as in free beer ;-) -> fsf.org
Even open source, does not always mean free! It is just one of the criteria for free software. -> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-sou ... nt.html.en
Without those people, the ideas (die hard ideology) and the free licenses they have established, and fought for, there would have been no GNU/Linux and no linuxmusicians-forum.

So, I must be a ignorant idealist? WOW!

Do you consider your self free from idealism, or ideology? Hmmm,.. Do you, ore for that matter anyone on this forum, consider himself free from philosophy, or some kind of beliefs? Free from any school of thought? Is it logical to think, that idealists, can not be realistic, or even practical? Really? And you call me ignorant? :D

SIGH.... Just when I thought this crap was over.....

Yes. I felt that you have been quite rude. And I'm still suspecting you are the same person that caused problems over in the Reaper forums. Your actions and speech are very similar, and you are so secretive about yourself. From first post, you come in and start making demands and challenging everyone who thinks differently from you. I've soured and lost patience for people that behave that way. I feel like you are a troll, and I can see from other posts in this thread that I'm not alone. So, sorry, not sorry. I'm not interested in being pushed around like last time. I'll stand up for myself this time.

For everyone else in this forum, I'll tell a little story (not directly related to anything in this thread other than about zealots). It's about another individual on Mastodon that I ran into that drove me nuts. I was posting a continuing thread of my linuxaudio laptop experiences like a micro-blog. One of the FSF zealots started literally attacking me for not calling "Linux" GNU/Linux. Now, I know that Richard Stallman would love to have "Linux" called "GNU/Linux", because he feels that GNU should get equal credit because of the inclusion of the GNU software that makes up the majority of the command line. However, I don't agree with Richard Stallman on this subject. He's made it very clear in a FAQ how he feels it should be, but he does not have the right to force others to call it "GNU/Linux". In fact, I swore after dealing with that FSF devotee that I would NEVER call Linux "GNU/Linux". Now, to be clear, I have nothing against the FSF--they've been a good organization that has helped Linux. But they are not in control of Linux, and they certainly don't have a right to force others to bend to their will. I'm digressing now, so I want to get back on topic and get to my point. This FSF Zealot continually attacked me for calling the OS we all use, "Linux". At first I tried to ignore this individual, but he/she had found me and had decided to involve himself/herself in my business--every post I made where I used the word Linux, I would get a post telling that I needed to call it GNU/Linux. Finally, I told the person that I could say what I wanted and to leave me alone. For those who don't know, there is a character limit for each text message, that is quite small--I had to reduce my messages to the smallest possible and I didn't want to add characters to my post by adding the unnecessary GNU to the front of the work Linux every time I posted. Needless to say, this continued day after day--and it escalated. Every time I tried to tell the user that I didn't need to do what they wanted me to do, I would get a post attached to my post from this person with parts of the FSF FAQ, as if it was a law that needed to be followed. I was daily lectured through attachments to my posts with comments just like these that are listed above:

Free Software -> Free as in freedom, and not free as in free beer ;-) -> fsf.org
Even open source, does not always mean free! It is just one of the criteria for free software. -> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-sou ... nt.html.en

Now, again to make it clear--I am NOT saying that heroina is the same person that attacked me on Mastodon. In fact, I'm quite sure it's not the same person. (However, I'm not so sure it isn't the person that used to harass people on the Reaper forums that went under the names of Beth, and later, Chmaha. I have suspicions that it may indeed be that person.)

I'll shorten things and get to the point. I've been bullied by trolls who take it upon themselves to come into a place and try to take over and tell people what to do, and how to do it, and I've been down that road and I won't go down it again. I'll fight it this time. In over 20 years of being on audio forums, I've only ever muted/ignored one person--that was the individual going under the name of Beth or Chmaha. I tried for years to not have to mute people, but I'm tired of the contention these types of people make. I'm tired of the arguments and I'm tired of having to feel like I have to defend myself. If this person, "heroina" begins acting like the person in the Reaper forum did, I'll start by muting/ignoring. But, but I won't stick around if this place becomes a den of contention like what happened to the Reaper forum.

I think it is perfectly fine to have opinions. I think it is perfectly fine to have strong feelings. It's perfectly fine to have whatever ideology a person wants. I don't think its fine to troll. I don't think its fine to come, new, into a forum and start telling people what the right way is and then start expecting people to change. By all means, debate issues. Explain yourself. But don't expect people to change.


I fully expect that I am going to be attacked about this post. It seems to be the way people are these days. There will probably be some people that agree with me as well. What I would really love, however, is to have things settle down and go back to business as normal, and have all people here to respect everyone. I'm sorry if you feel picked on, heroina--it isn't my intention. However, it IS my intention to try to nip a likely problem in the bud before it becomes bigger, as I suspect it would if nothing was said.

Last edited by Audiojunkie on Thu May 16, 2024 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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