Bitwig - why doesn't it work with JACK/PipeWire MIDI/audio?

[milkii]

Because Bitwig GmbH like openness when it's in their commercial favour (and they started it) - see CLAP and DAWproject - but eshew it when it comes to interoperability with other apps?

Like how Google and Facebook used Jabber/XMPP but disabled external access/federation, and Data Portability died, because working with others through open standards makes it in some way easier for users to move away from their software/platform?

That is cynical of them, no? It appears to me to be so, and I don't think this is highlighted enough, so I'm bringing it up.

[sysrqer]

What do you mean? The audio works perfectly fine and I do stuff in midi with it all the time.

[tavasti]

Your post is pretty cryptic rant with all real information missing, but Bitwig works great with Jack audio, so maybe your problem is Pipewire?

[milkii]

Well I thought it was common knowledge that Bitwig doesn't work with other JACK apps and steals access to MIDI hardware so other apps can't use it.

I tried it myself yesterday too check and Bitwig doesn't show up in RaySession or Carla when running, so is that not a shared experience? I'm running PipeWire, so all JACK, ALSA n Pulseaudio apps should see all other audio apps as their own respective system.

[sysrqer]

For midi you need to use

Code: Select all

options snd_virmidi midi_devs=1

in /etc/modprobe.d/ and then route it through that.
Audio works fine for me, I can see carla in Bitwig's track output routing.

Screenshot_20231120_095044.png (156.86 KiB) Viewed 789 times

[milkii]

Aha, n huh. Thank you.

A workaround for MIDI is nice, but it would be nicer if it bought into the "just works" openness.

N that's strange about my not being able to see Bitwig in other JACK audio apps then..

I have another play around with it tonight..

[LAM]

Are you joining the dark side?

[tavasti]

Well I thought it was common knowledge that Bitwig doesn't work with other JACK apps and steals access to MIDI hardware so other apps can't use it.

I tried it myself yesterday too check and Bitwig doesn't show up in RaySession or Carla when running, so is that not a shared experience? I'm running PipeWire, so all JACK, ALSA n Pulseaudio apps should see all other audio apps as their own respective system.

Ok, now you start to have some content.

In Bitwig settings->audio you can define audio connections you use (both input and output), and they can be also other jack softwares. For example, I have configured one strip from non-mixer as 'Speakers' and all my bitwig output goes to it. Sure not easiest work flow if it varies much what other softwares you want to connect.

For midi, yeah, it is stupid that Bitwig wants to exclusively take midi controllers. And stupid that you can't input/output midi to software ports without virtual midi device tricks. For me it does not make any harm, I haven't had single ocassion where that would have made any difference if I could connect software midi devices.

[milkii]

I stand by the content of my original post, that Bitwig doesn't play well with open [eco]systems unless it's on its own terms.

So I created a JACK Mixer instance and add a stereo input strip, which I do see the node and ports for in RaySession, but I can't see Bitwig to connect it to.

I went back, and see the Add Stereo Output bit. "Oh, maybe it's just like JACK Mixer?" I add that, close the config, but I still can't see Bitwig in the JACK graph in RaySession.

Then I see the Configuration drop-down, and that contains a device, which I select. I should have tried that before, but I wasn't looking to connect to an output device. That creates Input and Output busses that have that device. Now the Bitwig node does show up in RaySession, and connected to said device! So it's expecting you to only be using JACK and PipeWire to connect to the outside world?

I still don't see how to connect to JACK Mixer in the Bitwig configuartion. The Output menu only shows the device, which is selected, and No Output. I select No Output, because, y'know, push-all-the-buttons QA-esq methods might find a solution But then, when I open the Output drop-down again, there is no option for either JACK Mixer the output device. And the configuration has changed from the device name to Unnamed Configuration.

I'm really trying not to be wilfully stupid here! And I really do apprecieate the assistance. I've closed the app and reopened; there appears no way to add even an output device, let along connect a buss to another JACK app. Do I need to delete my Bitwig configuration and start again? Is this software behaviour not harming my ability to use Bitwig with JACK/PipeWire? I guess if I hook it up in RaySession that would work? But this is surely a case of Bitwig not playing well with JACK.

[sysrqer]

If you want to send audio out somewhere else then create a bus and choose where to send it, as you figured out and then do routing as usual. I don't know what raysession is but I don't see any issue sending to other jack apps.

Screenshot_20231120_204223.png (129.59 KiB) Viewed 641 times

My config:

Screenshot_20231120_203945.png (164.95 KiB) Viewed 641 times

[tavasti]

Then I see the Configuration drop-down, and that contains a device, which I select. I should have tried that before, but I wasn't looking to connect to an output device. That creates Input and Output busses that have that device. Now the Bitwig node does show up in RaySession, and connected to said device! So it's expecting you to only be using JACK and PipeWire to connect to the outside world?

Can the problem be raysession (don't even know what it is) or is 'jack' in Pipewire working somehow differently?

Here is how things appear for me:

bitwig_config.jpg (51.27 KiB) Viewed 601 times

connections.jpg (80.62 KiB) Viewed 601 times

[Linuxmusician01]

[...] For midi, yeah, it is stupid that Bitwig wants to exclusively take midi controllers. And stupid that you can't input/output midi to software ports without virtual midi device tricks. [...]

Thanks for the "warning". I hear that Bitwig is a nice DAW but it's good to know things like this before switching.

[GMaq]

Hi,

Not an excuse but since BitWig isn't exactly like Ardour or Hydrogen that began on Linux and then later branched out to other OS's and since it's clearly intended as a monolithic DAW why would it be expected that they should prioritize and accommodate modular workflows? It appears they are possible with some tweaks despite of that but if I were looking for a DAW to embrace a modular workflow BitWig wouldn't be my number one choice..

There's 'open' and there's 'we think we've provided everything you need in the main application', that's their prerogative..

[glowrak guy]

To some extent, Bitwig being created by a synth designer, shows the proclivity to have a lot of flexible internal connectivity
for producing the desired result, without needing much from the outside world. As a business model, Bitwig daw provides
sounds, instruments, effects, and some mastering, so a purchaser/subscriber can get started once the interface and labels are assimilated.
I'm not fond of the interface or the labeling, but the effects are drag-n-drop, so it's easy to concoct 'interesting' new chains.
I suspect Bitwig is no more or less convoluted than linux audio, so it's a fine hoot that they keep the linux version alive
I do think it would take quite a few hours, some video tutorials, and some good note-taking, for someone used to another daw,
to achieve a peaceful state of being with the record button. As should be the case, when providing a comprehnsive package.

Better to have Bitwig, Mixbus, Ardour, Qtractor, and Reaper, than be subserviant to Ableton, Cubase, Logic, and Pro-Tools.

I use Reaper myself, for simple music, often with audacity and standalone apps running, in addition to whatever internal plugins
or external hardware are found in the way. Simple and symmetrical, and doesn't challenge my IQ.

sudo modprobe snd_virmidi is about as deep as I want to go...when Bitwig 16-Track is on sale for $40, I'll cash in my Pepsi cans,
and have a go

[tavasti]

To some extent, Bitwig being created by a synth designer, shows the proclivity to have a lot of flexible internal connectivity
for producing the desired result, without needing much from the outside world

When I started with linux music about 10 years ago, I liked modular idea, started to investigate non-daw, connecting hydrogen, petrifoo, zyn etc to it. But state of everything was not in one file. To handle this, took NSM. But not all programs were able to store their state, so had half of the config saved, half had to be made again. I got nothing done with it, partially because of system, rest just because I was so newbie in music.

Later I did something with LMMS and then moved to Ardour (and Mixbus). I haven't ever connected other softwares to them, keeping all in one Ardour project is much more convienient. And same thing with Bitwig, all I need is available as plugins, no need for separate softwares.

sudo modprobe snd_virmidi is about as deep as I want to go...when Bitwig 16-Track is on sale for $40, I'll cash in my Pepsi cans,
and have a go

There is no more 16-track, there is 'essentials' which looks like containing nearly all I need and no track or vst limits. Normally 99, now 79. And if you get some 8-track license, now upgrade to Essentials for 69 (€ or $, all same I suppose). And I am pretty sure there won't be cheaper than this ever, they have these minimal discounts in november and start of summer, and that is all.

From stuff I use in Bitwig, only layered editing is missing from Essentials.