What makes Jazz, jazz

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Loki Harfagr
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Loki Harfagr »

Not sure why it'd be important to know if it's jazz or not compared to how you like some stuff or not but in any case that last piece sounds like sheer hard rock'n'roll to my ears, some blend between Deep Purple (a lot), Yes and Rush, well of course they all were driven by a blend of western classical, blues, rocn'n'roll, jazz, so at what point of what era would we stop searching for roots and start simply listening with pleasure to any music we feel? :wink:

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by sunrat »

Gps wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:42 pm

What the hell is this ? funk or jazz?

The bass slap makes me think funk, but that's about it, everything else makes me think Jazz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g46tXWx ... M&index=24

Funk for sure. It's a Tower Of Power cover! But funk is, you know... jazzy anyway. :lol:

Alfa Mist is one of my favourite modern jazz artists - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMxl405ZQvQ
Had the pleasure of working a show with him in Nov 2019, most enjoyable.

Also, genres! :roll: :lol:

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Dominique
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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Dominique »

I cannot find a simple answer to that. Historically, jazz was an evolution of the blues made by black musicians, and it was called "jazz" by white people at a time that word was an insult. Also, like with the blues, most songs was popular songs that mixed music with lyrics. With time, the white musicians eventually begun to play that kind of music and it evolved into a more subtle mix of musics from all over the world.

If I listen to some ching-dong music of Japan, is it jazz, punk or folk music, or a mix a these 3 musical genders. I think it is a mix. As example, Cicala-MVTA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcDMH8RHZZA
Or in a burlesque version of the Alabama song (The original is not from the Doors but from a Kurt Weil and Bertold Brecht opera called Mahagony): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVb9DgHpmI

When I make a replay of a well known song, I begun to listen to all the versions I can get. I would say than from a practical point of vue, the difference between jazz and the other musical genders is as always, the rhythm. I would say jazz is like salsa, but when salsa usually begun on the forth time on a four-time tempo and have the second and forth temps as loud temps, jazz begun usually on the first time and have the first and third temps as loud temps. What that change is mainly the feeling, but that's a huge change. Try to play the rhythmic of Hasta Siempre with a beginning of the rhythm on the first time: it will be very difficult to play it because the feeling will be at the wrong place. Play the same rhythmic and begin it on the forth time, it will be very easy to play because you will play it with the right feeling.

So well, for me it is no definite answer. Each kind of music have its own feeling and rhythms, and it's a lot of mixing as well. As example, I like to play the Alabama song on some funky rhythm. But I also like to play it rock & roll. Or to play the Christmas tree song on a Walz tempo. A special mention to a French song from Brassens, Chanson Pour L'Auvergnat. It is a tree-time song, some kind of Walz, but when "doubling the tempo", it become a tree-time blues, a long one like four 12 bars blues in B- following each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muJL2VV ... e&index=11

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

artix_linux_user wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:19 am

Yes, good appraoch:
try listening to jazz music.
Try to listen to it while you are sleeping, too.
Well, you can ask some one who is a self claimed music genius, or you can ask a normal musician, or a music teacher, or a dj - they all have different ways to look at music.
For me, when talking about music styles - I am looking at it from the producers, the bassists and the dj angle:
most things are happening on the hihat:
pay close attention to allways be exact on time when the hihat hits the one again.
The rest of the time you are free.

disco music is for me somehow 16th notes on the hihat at a beat around 120.
house is the same, just with drum machines and at a beat around 125-130.
Somehow...dunno
peace

Thats were my problem starts. Disco and House I can explain to everybody. And I agree calling it not the same is quite debatable.
Maybe the only real difference, there are no samples in disco. I also like to call House the revenge of Disco. (After disco was banned)

House started in clubs with disco mixes, were the "best" parts got looped and a drumcomputer was added (often an 808) to spice up the drums.

But even house has certain tracks that make me go hmmm, this is a bit of an odd one.
Frankie Knuckles - The Whistle song.
Typical House beat, but the melody is not typical house.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i9pZT8vCjc

With Jazz I am having this issue that its allot harder to pin down. I am still not over the shock, finding out Glenn Miller in the mood is considered Jazz. :lol:

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Dominique wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:14 pm

I cannot find a simple answer to that. Historically, jazz was an evolution of the blues made by black musicians, and it was called "jazz" by white people at a time that word was an insult. Also, like with the blues, most songs was popular songs that mixed music with lyrics. With time, the white musicians eventually begun to play that kind of music and it evolved into a more subtle mix of musics from all over the world.

If I listen to some ching-dong music of Japan, is it jazz, punk or folk music, or a mix a these 3 musical genders. I think it is a mix. As example, Cicala-MVTA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcDMH8RHZZA
Or in a burlesque version of the Alabama song (The original is not from the Doors but from a Kurt Weil and Bertold Brecht opera called Mahagony): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVb9DgHpmI

When I make a replay of a well known song, I begun to listen to all the versions I can get. I would say than from a practical point of vue, the difference between jazz and the other musical genders is as always, the rhythm. I would say jazz is like salsa, but when salsa usually begun on the forth time on a four-time tempo and have the second and forth temps as loud temps, jazz begun usually on the first time and have the first and third temps as loud temps. What that change is mainly the feeling, but that's a huge change. Try to play the rhythmic of Hasta Siempre with a beginning of the rhythm on the first time: it will be very difficult to play it because the feeling will be at the wrong place. Play the same rhythmic and begin it on the forth time, it will be very easy to play because you will play it with the right feeling.

So well, for me it is no definite answer. Each kind of music have its own feeling and rhythms, and it's a lot of mixing as well. As example, I like to play the Alabama song on some funky rhythm. But I also like to play it rock & roll. Or to play the Christmas tree song on a Walz tempo. A special mention to a French song from Brassens, Chanson Pour L'Auvergnat. It is a tree-time song, some kind of Walz, but when "doubling the tempo", it become a tree-time blues, a long one like four 12 bars blues in B- following each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muJL2VV ... e&index=11

OMG so Chuck D was right. He said they stole the Blues and Jazz. Thank god I did not sell those records. :wink:

The rhythm in Jazz does seem to be a difference.
Now I am gonna listen to the links.

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

sunrat wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:27 am
Gps wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:42 pm

What the hell is this ? funk or jazz?

The bass slap makes me think funk, but that's about it, everything else makes me think Jazz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g46tXWx ... M&index=24

Funk for sure. It's a Tower Of Power cover! But funk is, you know... jazzy anyway. :lol:

Alfa Mist is one of my favourite modern jazz artists - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMxl405ZQvQ
Had the pleasure of working a show with him in Nov 2019, most enjoyable.

Also, genres! :roll: :lol:

Even if your not right, I am gonna call Funk, Jazz. That basically solves all my issues and ends my confusion.

Now of course not all funk is Jazz like, but some at least must be related. :)

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Loki Harfagr wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:26 am

Not sure why it'd be important to know if it's jazz or not compared to how you like some stuff or not but in any case that last piece sounds like sheer hard rock'n'roll to my ears, some blend between Deep Purple (a lot), Yes and Rush, well of course they all were driven by a blend of western classical, blues, rocn'n'roll, jazz, so at what point of what era would we stop searching for roots and start simply listening with pleasure to any music we feel? :wink:

I can listen to music and enjoy it, and totally not care what genre it is.

I had this idea though I wanted to make Jazz, but then ended in a world of confusion, about what defines Jazz vs Funk.

If I want to make Jazz, it seems I have to add a time period. 60 ? 70 ?

And yes those Asian woman made me think of Deep Purple too. The organ part definitely hints at some deep purple influence.

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Alfa Mist :shock:

There is even a track that has to me a hip hop vibe.

The 4th track of the record. Drums like this are used in Hip Hop.

Very interesting :)

Hip Hop uses a lot of jazz blues and such samples, so its not really surprising.

CICALA-MVTA Live in Tokyo Dec.28th 2015

Wow, this track proofs to me how much making music myself has changed my taste for music.
About 10 years ago, I would have hated this, but now I find it interesting. :)

みわぞう祭り[3] アラバマソング
Another shock for me, it sound somewhat familiar, which might be because I have heard the Doors version of this track. Or maybe the original. :)

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Dominique »

Gps wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:16 pm

OMG so Chuck D was right. He said they stole the Blues and Jazz. Thank god I did not sell those records. :wink:

Some Cuban musicians said than they invented rap music, that because of the so-called musica campesina. That style of music can be found in all Latin America and in Cuba as well. It is some sort of cuban country music with a special emphasis on the vocals: nobody want a singer that cannot improvize, which caused the parallel with rap music. I don't like much the cuban musica campesina as they show it at the Cuban television, but their singers are outstanding, and for any popular singer in Cuba, it is just "I must do it". Candido Fabré is almost unknown outside of Cuba, but in Cuba it is maybe the most popular singer. Here we can listen to him and other singers improvising a story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKmCRxUokNo

Perdoname is maybe his most popular song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ku30tA ... 8A&index=2

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Dominique »

These times, I listen a lot to them, Otyken, some kind of ethno music from the taiga that mix tradition and modernity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHkgD7e ... MM&index=6

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Very interesting. :)

Candido Fabré sounds like what I think of when I think of Cuban music.

But Otyken :shock:
I like it but did not see that coming. Something I will listen too more often.

Rap with indian influence.

I really like OTYKEN - PARADISE LOST.

But then found also this, a lot more rap like.

OTYKEN - LEGEND

Something new for me to listen too. :)

Last night was messing around with Oxygene IV -Jean Michel Jarre in LMMS.
(I had found an ARP2600 like plugin.)

It made me realize when making Jazz, I need instruments common to Jazz.

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

The problem I am having although not wiling to quit yet, I can't get my finger on what defines Jazz.
And maybe even more important, what kind of jazz I want to make.

I got very good feedback in this topic, but I can't get over Glenn miller - in the mood being jazz.
Nor how this track is related to take five. :?

Hmm while listening to in the mood again, maybe I am seeing the light. There is definitely some kind of loop, and improvisations.
Take five has this too,

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Loki Harfagr »

Well, at least some folks made some sheer lyrics on that question and answer game, it's all inside ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vcOwUT4v5U

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

Ok, if you want something really different with a jazz influence, you need to hear the french band "Magma". They are a cross between jazz and Bartok. They sing in Kobiain, which is the language of the earth colony on planet Kobia. The drummer writes the music, and he is a formidable force on the drumkit. Drummers will definitely want to check this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlJKKtgreqw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnsfdK96inc

Artix, check out this bass player if you want to hear someone with a different concept of what a bass should play.

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Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by erlkönig »

Hamataï!
Magma sühn zeuhl lëm!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoZIXPvHPoY
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all in the first three minutes

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