What makes Jazz, jazz

Ask general music theory or songwriting questions, get feedback!

Moderators: khz, MattKingUSA

Gps
Established Member
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:09 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Thanks for the smile on my face. :lol:

Not sure if you tube is to blame for it, but I am finding it harder and harder to define jazz.

There is a lot of Soul / Funk, that is at least very close to jazz.

The main difference might be jazz being less repetitive. There is more variation in the loop.

I still cant get over Glenn Miller in the mood, being jazz though.

Don't get me wrong I like in the mood of Glenn miller but to me it sounds as loopy as most funk.....

I did find a site that is helping me big time:

https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-p ... -straight/
(jazz piano)


An example of something confusing me, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07rb7QQYk7E

I think its jazz, but I am very tempted to call it funk... :?

I am probably overthinking it.

There is btw an awesome remix of this track, awesome to me at least.
Gregory Porter - Liquid Spirit (Claptone Remix)

But they did kill the jazz part, and turned it into something disco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWiilOH ... MM&index=9

Then there is DJ Functual, he shows were the hip hop samples come from.
Through him I found this:
Quincy Jones - SOUL BOSSA NOVA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5ALPzS0QfQ

For those wondering what this has to do with hip hop, here ya go:
Dream Warriors - My Definition Of A Boombastic Jazz Style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoE5yHMrP0A
Eli
Established Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:48 am
Location: Indiana, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Eli »

2-5-1 cadences, 7/9/11/13 extensions (sometimes flat/sharp), augmented/diminished chords, improvisation
Gps
Established Member
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:09 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

I might fail at making Jazz, but not totally giving up yet.

There is one type of music totally confusing me, when I look for the difference between Funk and Jazz.

There must be an extreme thin line between them.

Its detail like this that often gets me stuck. Lets hope that as before this will lead too an breakthrough.

What the hell is this ? funk or jazz?

The bass slap makes me think funk, but that's about it, everything else makes me think Jazz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g46tXWx ... M&index=24

( A bit of topic, not worth a new topic, but I hope it will make a few people smile. )
I am selling my Public Enemy records. My former hero Chuck D said in an (very old) interview that they (white people?) stole jazz and he was not gonna let this happen to Hip Hop.

So on sale:
Fear of a black planet and
It takes a nation of millions to hold us back. :P

Oh wait did someone mention emimem :lol:

All kidding aside, Chuck D is still my "hero", and I still love Public Enemy - Fight the Power
Not a real fan of emimem, although I like some of his tracks.

Maybe I need to stop to listen to anything else then jazz?
Get that funk out of my head.

User avatar
artix_linux_user
Established Member
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:19 am
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by artix_linux_user »

Yes, good appraoch:
try listening to jazz music.
Try to listen to it while you are sleeping, too.
Well, you can ask some one who is a self claimed music genius, or you can ask a normal musician, or a music teacher, or a dj - they all have different ways to look at music.
For me, when talking about music styles - I am looking at it from the producers, the bassists and the dj angle:
most things are happening on the hihat:
pay close attention to allways be exact on time when the hihat hits the one again.
The rest of the time you are free.

disco music is for me somehow 16th notes on the hihat at a beat around 120.
house is the same, just with drum machines and at a beat around 125-130.
Somehow...dunno
peace

Listen to my music
https://l330.bandcamp.com/
User avatar
Loki Harfagr
Established Member
Posts: 206
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:28 pm
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 36 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Loki Harfagr »

Not sure why it'd be important to know if it's jazz or not compared to how you like some stuff or not but in any case that last piece sounds like sheer hard rock'n'roll to my ears, some blend between Deep Purple (a lot), Yes and Rush, well of course they all were driven by a blend of western classical, blues, rocn'n'roll, jazz, so at what point of what era would we stop searching for roots and start simply listening with pleasure to any music we feel? :wink:

User avatar
sunrat
Established Member
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:08 pm
Has thanked: 85 times
Been thanked: 135 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by sunrat »

Gps wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:42 pm

What the hell is this ? funk or jazz?

The bass slap makes me think funk, but that's about it, everything else makes me think Jazz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g46tXWx ... M&index=24

Funk for sure. It's a Tower Of Power cover! But funk is, you know... jazzy anyway. :lol:

Alfa Mist is one of my favourite modern jazz artists - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMxl405ZQvQ
Had the pleasure of working a show with him in Nov 2019, most enjoyable.

Also, genres! :roll: :lol:

genre-troubles.jpg
genre-troubles.jpg (26.18 KiB) Viewed 344 times
Dominique
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 10:24 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Dominique »

I cannot find a simple answer to that. Historically, jazz was an evolution of the blues made by black musicians, and it was called "jazz" by white people at a time that word was an insult. Also, like with the blues, most songs was popular songs that mixed music with lyrics. With time, the white musicians eventually begun to play that kind of music and it evolved into a more subtle mix of musics from all over the world.

If I listen to some ching-dong music of Japan, is it jazz, punk or folk music, or a mix a these 3 musical genders. I think it is a mix. As example, Cicala-MVTA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcDMH8RHZZA
Or in a burlesque version of the Alabama song (The original is not from the Doors but from a Kurt Weil and Bertold Brecht opera called Mahagony): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVb9DgHpmI

When I make a replay of a well known song, I begun to listen to all the versions I can get. I would say than from a practical point of vue, the difference between jazz and the other musical genders is as always, the rhythm. I would say jazz is like salsa, but when salsa usually begun on the forth time on a four-time tempo and have the second and forth temps as loud temps, jazz begun usually on the first time and have the first and third temps as loud temps. What that change is mainly the feeling, but that's a huge change. Try to play the rhythmic of Hasta Siempre with a beginning of the rhythm on the first time: it will be very difficult to play it because the feeling will be at the wrong place. Play the same rhythmic and begin it on the forth time, it will be very easy to play because you will play it with the right feeling.

So well, for me it is no definite answer. Each kind of music have its own feeling and rhythms, and it's a lot of mixing as well. As example, I like to play the Alabama song on some funky rhythm. But I also like to play it rock & roll. Or to play the Christmas tree song on a Walz tempo. A special mention to a French song from Brassens, Chanson Pour L'Auvergnat. It is a tree-time song, some kind of Walz, but when "doubling the tempo", it become a tree-time blues, a long one like four 12 bars blues in B- following each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muJL2VV ... e&index=11

Gps
Established Member
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:09 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

artix_linux_user wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:19 am

Yes, good appraoch:
try listening to jazz music.
Try to listen to it while you are sleeping, too.
Well, you can ask some one who is a self claimed music genius, or you can ask a normal musician, or a music teacher, or a dj - they all have different ways to look at music.
For me, when talking about music styles - I am looking at it from the producers, the bassists and the dj angle:
most things are happening on the hihat:
pay close attention to allways be exact on time when the hihat hits the one again.
The rest of the time you are free.

disco music is for me somehow 16th notes on the hihat at a beat around 120.
house is the same, just with drum machines and at a beat around 125-130.
Somehow...dunno
peace

Thats were my problem starts. Disco and House I can explain to everybody. And I agree calling it not the same is quite debatable.
Maybe the only real difference, there are no samples in disco. I also like to call House the revenge of Disco. (After disco was banned)

House started in clubs with disco mixes, were the "best" parts got looped and a drumcomputer was added (often an 808) to spice up the drums.

But even house has certain tracks that make me go hmmm, this is a bit of an odd one.
Frankie Knuckles - The Whistle song.
Typical House beat, but the melody is not typical house.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i9pZT8vCjc

With Jazz I am having this issue that its allot harder to pin down. I am still not over the shock, finding out Glenn Miller in the mood is considered Jazz. :lol:

Gps
Established Member
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:09 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Dominique wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:14 pm

I cannot find a simple answer to that. Historically, jazz was an evolution of the blues made by black musicians, and it was called "jazz" by white people at a time that word was an insult. Also, like with the blues, most songs was popular songs that mixed music with lyrics. With time, the white musicians eventually begun to play that kind of music and it evolved into a more subtle mix of musics from all over the world.

If I listen to some ching-dong music of Japan, is it jazz, punk or folk music, or a mix a these 3 musical genders. I think it is a mix. As example, Cicala-MVTA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcDMH8RHZZA
Or in a burlesque version of the Alabama song (The original is not from the Doors but from a Kurt Weil and Bertold Brecht opera called Mahagony): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVb9DgHpmI

When I make a replay of a well known song, I begun to listen to all the versions I can get. I would say than from a practical point of vue, the difference between jazz and the other musical genders is as always, the rhythm. I would say jazz is like salsa, but when salsa usually begun on the forth time on a four-time tempo and have the second and forth temps as loud temps, jazz begun usually on the first time and have the first and third temps as loud temps. What that change is mainly the feeling, but that's a huge change. Try to play the rhythmic of Hasta Siempre with a beginning of the rhythm on the first time: it will be very difficult to play it because the feeling will be at the wrong place. Play the same rhythmic and begin it on the forth time, it will be very easy to play because you will play it with the right feeling.

So well, for me it is no definite answer. Each kind of music have its own feeling and rhythms, and it's a lot of mixing as well. As example, I like to play the Alabama song on some funky rhythm. But I also like to play it rock & roll. Or to play the Christmas tree song on a Walz tempo. A special mention to a French song from Brassens, Chanson Pour L'Auvergnat. It is a tree-time song, some kind of Walz, but when "doubling the tempo", it become a tree-time blues, a long one like four 12 bars blues in B- following each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muJL2VV ... e&index=11

OMG so Chuck D was right. He said they stole the Blues and Jazz. Thank god I did not sell those records. :wink:

The rhythm in Jazz does seem to be a difference.
Now I am gonna listen to the links.

Gps
Established Member
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:09 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

sunrat wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:27 am
Gps wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:42 pm

What the hell is this ? funk or jazz?

The bass slap makes me think funk, but that's about it, everything else makes me think Jazz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g46tXWx ... M&index=24

Funk for sure. It's a Tower Of Power cover! But funk is, you know... jazzy anyway. :lol:

Alfa Mist is one of my favourite modern jazz artists - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMxl405ZQvQ
Had the pleasure of working a show with him in Nov 2019, most enjoyable.

Also, genres! :roll: :lol:

Even if your not right, I am gonna call Funk, Jazz. That basically solves all my issues and ends my confusion.

Now of course not all funk is Jazz like, but some at least must be related. :)

Gps
Established Member
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:09 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Loki Harfagr wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:26 am

Not sure why it'd be important to know if it's jazz or not compared to how you like some stuff or not but in any case that last piece sounds like sheer hard rock'n'roll to my ears, some blend between Deep Purple (a lot), Yes and Rush, well of course they all were driven by a blend of western classical, blues, rocn'n'roll, jazz, so at what point of what era would we stop searching for roots and start simply listening with pleasure to any music we feel? :wink:

I can listen to music and enjoy it, and totally not care what genre it is.

I had this idea though I wanted to make Jazz, but then ended in a world of confusion, about what defines Jazz vs Funk.

If I want to make Jazz, it seems I have to add a time period. 60 ? 70 ?

And yes those Asian woman made me think of Deep Purple too. The organ part definitely hints at some deep purple influence.

Gps
Established Member
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:09 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Alfa Mist :shock:

There is even a track that has to me a hip hop vibe.

The 4th track of the record. Drums like this are used in Hip Hop.

Very interesting :)

Hip Hop uses a lot of jazz blues and such samples, so its not really surprising.

CICALA-MVTA Live in Tokyo Dec.28th 2015

Wow, this track proofs to me how much making music myself has changed my taste for music.
About 10 years ago, I would have hated this, but now I find it interesting. :)

みわぞう祭り[3] アラバマソング
Another shock for me, it sound somewhat familiar, which might be because I have heard the Doors version of this track. Or maybe the original. :)

Dominique
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 10:24 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Dominique »

Gps wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:16 pm

OMG so Chuck D was right. He said they stole the Blues and Jazz. Thank god I did not sell those records. :wink:

Some Cuban musicians said than they invented rap music, that because of the so-called musica campesina. That style of music can be found in all Latin America and in Cuba as well. It is some sort of cuban country music with a special emphasis on the vocals: nobody want a singer that cannot improvize, which caused the parallel with rap music. I don't like much the cuban musica campesina as they show it at the Cuban television, but their singers are outstanding, and for any popular singer in Cuba, it is just "I must do it". Candido Fabré is almost unknown outside of Cuba, but in Cuba it is maybe the most popular singer. Here we can listen to him and other singers improvising a story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKmCRxUokNo

Perdoname is maybe his most popular song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ku30tA ... 8A&index=2

Dominique
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 10:24 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Dominique »

These times, I listen a lot to them, Otyken, some kind of ethno music from the taiga that mix tradition and modernity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHkgD7e ... MM&index=6

Gps
Established Member
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:09 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: What makes Jazz, jazz

Post by Gps »

Very interesting. :)

Candido Fabré sounds like what I think of when I think of Cuban music.

But Otyken :shock:
I like it but did not see that coming. Something I will listen too more often.

Rap with indian influence.

I really like OTYKEN - PARADISE LOST.

But then found also this, a lot more rap like.

OTYKEN - LEGEND

Something new for me to listen too. :)

Last night was messing around with Oxygene IV -Jean Michel Jarre in LMMS.
(I had found an ARP2600 like plugin.)

It made me realize when making Jazz, I need instruments common to Jazz.

Post Reply