How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

Ask general music theory or songwriting questions, get feedback!

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Re: How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

Post by Impostor »

hefxthoth wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:55 am

When I've spent more than three days mixing and I'm starting to detest and consider not to release my track, then enought is enought: That's the moment to render, register and upload my song.

Ha! Good to hear I'm not the only one!

hefxthoth wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:55 am

Particullary when you're a lonely bedroom producer and you have to do all the production processed alone, I would recommend (from my personal experience and some disastrous sonic fails) to have your own final reference from early stages of instrument choices, sound design and musical arrangement.

I am not so much composing as trying out whatever works and sounds good when creating a song, so from the very beginning I'm already working on the final shape and color of the sound. The (final) structure of the arrangement appears only when trying to include some variation into the whole. That seems opposite to how most people work: they begin with an idea and try to catch that in their recordings, and then shape the sound. I begin with sound, and end up (hopefully) with an idea of how my song should be structured only when I already have made some kind of arrangement with that sound.

One thing I absolutely hate though is listening to my stuff on speakers. I simply cannot make that work. What is audiobliss on my headphones often sounds unremarkable and flat over speakers. Blegh..

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Re: How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

Post by hefxthoth »

One thing I absolutely hate though is listening to my stuff on speakers. I simply cannot make that work. What is audiobliss on my headphones often sounds unremarkable and flat over speakers. Blegh..

Could be out of phase problems on bass frequencies in the stereo field. Check what's sounding in mono when you're mixing and if you notice a notable lack of energy this is the problem. You can solve this processing the Mid/Side of your tracks. Sometimes lowering a few dBs in the Side, filtering the bass frequencies of the stereo field, boosting the bass in the Mid and compensating the gain can be enought, but not always is so easy.
Closed back headphones gives steroids to the bass and completely isolate each ear from the other; so if you don't work with monitors for whatever reason and that's were your main reference (as in my case), consider a second pair of open back headphones to check your sound in a more natural manner. This headphones has also disadvantages (be careful with the lack of low end), but two references are always better than one.

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Re: How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

Post by Impostor »

hefxthoth wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:01 am

Could be out of phase problems on bass frequencies in the stereo field. Check what's sounding in mono when you're mixing and if you notice a notable lack of energy this is the problem. You can solve this processing the Mid/Side of your tracks. Sometimes lowering a few dBs in the Side, filtering the bass frequencies of the stereo field, boosting the bass in the Mid and compensating the gain can be enought, but not always is so easy.

Bass indeed often gives some problems too. But also high frequency sounds: for example any quiet subtle sound that can be heard clearly with headphones can just disappear on speakers. And when I make it audible on speakers, it becomes too loud for the headphones. It's a pain in the ass.


hefxthoth wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:01 am

Closed back headphones gives steroids to the bass and completely isolate each ear from the other; so if you don't work with monitors for whatever reason and that's were your main reference (as in my case), consider a second pair of open back headphones to check your sound in a more natural manner. This headphones has also disadvantages (be careful with the lack of low end), but two references are always better than one.

For music I have open DT990's. I also have closed DT770's, but only use those for gaming, for when the cooler fans start screaming. With the 990's I did sometimes use EQ compensation, and use a stereo to binaural plugin for monitoring purposes, in the hope the endresult sounded better over my speakers, but found it too much of a hassle really, with disappointing results...Currently I find myself simply ignoring the fact that speakers exist at all:)

I will keep the mid/side processing trick in mind.

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Re: How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

Post by folderol »

Bear in mind that particularly at low frequencies room resonances can mess up the sound. Also high frequencies are very directional, and if the speakers aren't point directly at your ears can drop off quickly.
I get the best results with the classic equilateral triangle, and later listening to a playback wandering round the room, and also just outside the door. This gives a better idea of how your listens might hear it.

The Yoshimi guy {apparently now an 'elderly'}
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Re: How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

Post by Death »

Nothing is ever finished! Get used to that..

It's just a case of when you let them go and I have learned something very useful about that so I'll share it with you; When you think is a song is 'finished' or ready to be released (which is more how I think of it), leave it alone and don't listen to it at all (not even once) for a few weeks or even more if you can wait longer. This way you will come back to it with fresh ears and get a much better perspective on it. Things that need adjusting will be much clearer to you so then make your adjustments and then wait again. Do this until you come back and are not finding any meaningful issues anymore, then release it and move on to the next one or take a break from music!

Uploading a song right after a mixing session is a terrible idea because your ears can be tired and you've lost your perspective on the track. You always need to judge after a break and coming back with fresh ears. I used to upload things right after working on them, only to take them down and work on them again the next day. Eventually I learned a bit of discipline and stopped doing it. I stopped releasing demo tracks too. It's all working well for me now :) I'll always hear previous songs of mine and think I could've done something better but there's nothing about them that's keeping me up at night because all the glaring issues were fixed using the method I described above. Try it :wink:

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Re: How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

Post by Impostor »

Death wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:44 am

When you think is a song is 'finished' or ready to be released (which is more how I think of it), leave it alone and don't listen to it at all (not even once) for a few weeks or even more if you can wait longer.

I know I should. But that requires an amount of restraint I currently lack! I made "the fourth offering" (see original recordings) in a single day, and immediately uploaded it. And now, for the past 2 days, I've been obsessively listening to try to convince myself it is actually 'finished' :) / :(

Death wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:44 am

Eventually I learned a bit of discipline and stopped doing it.[..] Try it :wink:

Yeah. I'll probably need some therapy for that..

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Re: How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

Post by Dominique »

A song is never finished for me. I am happy with a song when I can play it, but as my playing style change with time, it's a never ending process. Also, if I liked to play classical music and admire the virtuosity of metal music, I prefer the rythm and blues approach, to keep things simple and use the feeling to add the complications. With time and my progress, that evolved into, even if the structure of a given song will remain the same, than I am not interested to play 2 times the same thing. With a few exceptions, I have a few songs than I play every time the same because I find this is the way they sound best, but otherwise I just find it too boring.

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Re: How do YOU decide when a song's finished?

Post by Death »

@Impostor Yeh I get it. I used to be the same! You really want to show the world what you've made.. But as I'm someone who spends months just making one song, I'm used to the process taking a long time and I'll just put one aside once it's close to being done and then begin the next one. I don't release songs right after finishing them anymore. I always give them time to to sit.

Hell, I just released a song the other day that I last worked on two years ago! It wasn't actually finished in my head but I'd ran out of ideas for it so I left it alone for a very long time. I came back to it and still had no new ideas or much motivation to work on it as I was onto new things so I just put it out there seeing as it'd been a while since I'd released anything. So yeh, that's just how long I'll wait sometimes haha..

I'm not sure how long you've been releasing music but I'll guess it's quite new to you. You'll figure out how to deal with this stuff after a while! I tell you, it's better to take the time to make sure the glaring issues are dealt with than release something right after finishing a mix and then regretting it :wink:

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