I know two people who died from Sars-CoV-2, do you know anyone?

[Gps]

What would be, in the context that is currently the focus, the limitations and tradeoffs of the RT-PCR process ?

The way I understand this, they find a piece of a car (some RNA), and then claim to have found a complete car. ( covid 19)

Maybe Milo can explain this better then me.

[Gps]

Maybe I reading this too fast , because I am also eating but. 1200 a day times 7 makes 8400.
That even below the numbers of 2018 influenza numbers in the top graph. 13000.

You're possibly not getting the first graph. The sine wave is the baseline number of deaths per week. The red line is the deaths attributed to flu. So to get the number of flu deaths you must subtract the baseline. The Covid graph is simply the number of Covid deaths which is an underestimate because using techniques like the baseline statisticians will calculate the 'excess deaths' which is more accurate and more like the first graph.

One aspect is that flu peaks for a week. Covid just kept going and the points where the figures go down are where strict lockdowns were introduced.

So you were wrong.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... bruary2021

To me these numbers look around the same as the number of people who died in 2018.

Were is that pandemic?

[merlyn]

To me these numbers look around the same as the number of people who died in 2018.

Does that make sense to you? Because it doesn't make sense to me.

What is your point? That because lockdowns and vaccinations have reduced the spread of Covid in the UK we should call the 2018 flu season a pandemic? There is no logical connection whatsoever between those two concepts.

[milo]

What would be, in the context that is currently the focus, the limitations and tradeoffs of the RT-PCR process ?

The way I understand this, they find a piece of a car (some RNA), and then claim to have found a complete car. ( covid 19)

Maybe Milo can explain this better then me.

I never expected to write about molecular biology on this forum, but I guess here goes post #2 on the topic.

First off, PCR is a super useful tool and a neat technology. A full explanation of how it works would probably take more time and space than I want to use here, so I will refer you to the excellent wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerase_chain_reaction. Here is the most important figure from the article:

1024px-Polymerase_chain_reaction-en.svg.png (86.05 KiB) Viewed 3288 times

Thanks to the incredible specificity of nucleic acid sequences and the power of exponential growth, if a sequence exists within a sample, then you will find it with PCR.

I also refer you to the excellent wikipedia article on coronaviruses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavir ... tion_cycle, and the most relevant figure for our discussion:

Coronavirus_replication.png (180.18 KiB) Viewed 3288 times

Notice that the viral RNA is really the key to this whole process. Without RNA, nothing else happens. And for some viruses, all you have to do is drop their naked DNA/RNA into a host cell and it will use the host cell's machinery to start making virus particles.

Coronaviruses have about 30K bases in their genome. If I calculate correctly, the likelihood that a Sars-CoV2-specific 30K base nucleic acid sequence would be in a sample by random chance, and not because of an infection with that virus, would be about (1/4)^30K. (That's an incredibly small number.) So yes, if you find Sars-CoV2 RNA in a sample, then Sars-CoV2 is in that sample. Because where did the RNA come from otherwise?

Think of it this way: If you find the Linux kernel in the contents of a computer's memory, then you can safely assume that said computer is running Linux as its OS. Because what is the likelihood that a Windows machine or a Mac, or any other machine would have the Linux kernel loaded into memory? Pretty low. (Maybe not quite as low as (1/4)^30k, though.)

As with any technology, there are limitations and tradeoffs. Some samples can be contaminated, producing a false positive. A process failure (bad reagent, malfunctioning machine, etc.) could produce a false negative. No test has a perfect sensitivity.

As for the complaint that PCR was not designed to be a diagnostic test ... so what? Computers weren't designed to make music. Linux wasn't designed to make music. Tools have uses beyond their original design.

[Loki Harfagr]

And to help, or at least try to help, as far as the "car fragment found" metaphor goes that'll read:
They found a metal plate engraved with a VIN and so are astonishingly asserting the thing is not a pineapple.

So, now we could go back to some serious secrets like why some Reaper fans prefer 'MShorifix' to real stuff like VI or ED like the real musakers do
Or not.

[Gps]

@ Milo

Thank you.

Interesting to hear your view on this.

Peter Borger whom I mentioned before is a molecular biologist, who has designed pcr test. I have listened to him, he is very critical about how the pcr test is used.

To quote him: The PCR test by it self is a good test.

One of his complaints is that they use too many cycles. 35 from to the top of my head instead of what should be the max 25 - 30 cycles.

If you use too many cycles you will get more false positives.

Now you know how you ended up talking about this on the forum.

Then there is a discussion on the primers they use with the pcr test.
The primers used, if I get it right, are to calibrate the pcr test.
Some say those primers are not covid 19 specific but more general sars.

[milo]

The primers have to be a part of the sequence of interest, and they have to be long enough (=specific enough) to amplify the sequence of interest and ignore other sequences. Any biological sample will contain a soup of RNA and DNA. The primers are how you choose the one you want to amplify and grow exponentially.

Yes, higher cycle numbers will produce more false positives. That is another decision with tradeoffs. A higher cycle number will be more sensitive, meaning that a known positive sample will more likely result in a true positive test result. A lower cycle number will be more specific, meaning that a known negative sample will less likely result in the false positive.

It's a lot like tuning your JACK parameters to minimize xruns and minimize latency. There are tradeoffs with using every tool.

[Gps]

Very interesting.

Long enough = specific enough. That makes sense to me

Bit by bit I am starting to understand more and more about this.

I am man enough to admit that when it came to those primers, I started to not understand what they were talking about.

[jonetsu]

One of his complaints is that they use too many cycles. 35 from to the top of my head instead of what should be the max 25 - 30 cycles. If you use too many cycles you will get more false positives.

The CDC is studying why vaccinated people can still be catching the virus. In order to do, unless I'm mistaken, they restrict the subjects for the studies to being tested using the RT-PCR at a maximal value of 28 cycles.

Here the gov't is using 45 cycles in order to maintain the anxiety, the stress and the fear.

References.

CDC: "COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough case investigation"

Exceprt.

"Specimen selection
Clinical specimens for sequencing should have an RT-PCR Ct value ≤28. "

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/d ... gation.pdf


Laboratoire de Santé Publique du Québec: "Recherche du SARS-CoV-2 par RT-PCR avec détection en temps réel"

https://www.inspq.qc.ca/sites/default/f ... -131_1.pdf

EDIT: reformatted text titles that were copy/pasted.

[jonetsu]

Yes, higher cycle numbers will produce more false positives."

This is known since quite some time by now.

I do have a question. Is the spike protein remaining in the muscle at more or less the point of injection ?

On the matter, there is Dr. Roger Hodkinson that is saying about this. Before anything his credentials should be mentioned here. They are also mentioned in this 5-minute video. Unfortunately I only have them in writing in German, but that should be readable since they are credentials.

"Dr. Hodkinson ist Vorsitzender des Komitees des Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, Ottawa, ehemaliger Präsident der Alberta Society of Laboratory Physicians, CEO eines großen privaten medizinischen Labors in Edmonton, Alberta, sowie Vorsitzender eines Unternehmens für medizinische Biotechnologie, das einen Covid-19-Test verkauft."

A search on his name will return many university links.

The video, has he addresses the Edmonton City Council in this short excerpt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIstHSN0bxM

[jonetsu]

I've been absent from the forum for some time now as I can tell by this 'new' thanking thing. It's actually a coincidence that I see this thread as I'm about to post some music in the coming days, and wanted to drop by meanwhile.

The Review report Corman-Drosten et al. Eurosurveillance 2020 posted by gps has quite a lot of information in it, backed by many experts in the field. I guess I should use the thanking feature ...

[folderol]

Yes, higher cycle numbers will produce more false positives."

This is known since quite some time by now.

I do have a question. Is the spike protein remaining in the muscle at more or less the point of injection ?

On the matter, there is Dr. Roger Hodkinson that is saying about this. Before anything his credentials should be mentioned here. They are also mentioned in this 5-minute video. Unfortunately I only have them in writing in German, but that should be readable since they are credentials.

"Dr. Hodkinson ist Vorsitzender des Komitees des Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, Ottawa, ehemaliger Präsident der Alberta Society of Laboratory Physicians, CEO eines großen privaten medizinischen Labors in Edmonton, Alberta, sowie Vorsitzender eines Unternehmens für medizinische Biotechnologie, das einen Covid-19-Test verkauft."

A search on his name will return many university links.

The video, has he addresses the Edmonton City Council in this short excerpt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIstHSN0bxM

Deepl translater returns:

Dr. Hodkinson is chairman of the committee of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, Ottawa, past president of the Alberta Society of Laboratory Physicians, CEO of a large private medical laboratory in Edmonton, Alberta, and chairman of a medical biotechnology company that sells a Covid 19 test

[jonetsu]

Deepl translater returns:

Thanks for the translation although I do consider that the original is quite readable as far as credentials goes. The idea was to simply toss away, as a first step, any preconceptions on the video being from a "conspiracy theorist" deep in his/her basement thus being considered like a nonsensical uttering of fables and wonders, leading to avoidance.

Now let's see if some will challenge the video itself as being a montage of an event that did not actually happen.

Of note, the original video was deleted by youtube.

[CrocoDuck]

Dr. Hodkinson is chairman of the committee of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, Ottawa, past president of the Alberta Society of Laboratory Physicians, CEO of a large private medical laboratory in Edmonton, Alberta, and chairman of a medical biotechnology company that sells a Covid 19 test

It does appear that the very first qualification was not actually hold by Dr. Hodkinson, see The Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons statement. Of course, this is not enough to invalidate the points he has presented, which I still have to dig into. Just thought I would leave it there as I start looking into this.

[jonetsu]

It does appear that the very first qualification was not actually hold by Dr. Hodkinson, see The Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons statement. Of course, this is not enough to invalidate the points he has presented, which I still have to dig into. Just thought I would live it there as I start looking into this.

Interesting. The College also takes a paragraph in there to reinforce the notion that covid is a serious threat to the health to the population.

With around 99% of recovery rate,according to a so-called fact checker:

"Scientists estimated that, until the end of June, the actual fatality rate in England was about 0.9%."

Which goes on to cite Pfizer themselves for:

"The Pfizer vaccine is currently reported to be at least 90% effective in preventing Covid-19... "

https://fullfact.org/health/Covid-recovery-vaccine/

Right. With Astra Zeneca, for instance, having paid huge fines for corrupting clinical tests.

"Over the years, AstraZeneca has had its share of legal trouble, paying more than $1 billion in federal fines and legal settlements for corrupting clinical trials and illegally promoting antipsychotic ..."

Drug Watch, phone: 888 645-1617
https://www.drugwatch.com/manufacturers/astrazeneca/

While on Drug Watch, take a look at Pfizer. $2.3 billions in various frauds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... ettlements

All good people wanting the best for you and your family.

What I mean is that, this would have to be talked about with Dr. Hodkinson. MutantDX, the company he leads, even has it. He said it in Edmonton, in the video.

https://mutantdx.com/principals/

As it stands, there's a guy on one side, and on the other side there are intertwined interests having a lot of financial means. Enough, that one party can afford to pay court settlements in the hundreds of thousands dollars. Look at the full list of such court settlements, with no slowing down in doing more of the same.