Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

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Gps
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Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Gps » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:52 pm

https://soundcloud.com/user586365033/dig-this

What am I doing wrong? Also would like feedback on what I made, I am quite happy with it, but does not feel like its the house I am after :?

When I say House I am thinking of tracks like this:
Feel free to correct me if the first track isn't house. :)
I am not 100% convinced that it is House, were the second and third track definitely are.

Simon & Shaker - Zero (Original Mix Edit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ-rOA62W8

Frankie Knuckles - Your Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl6uliNCkUU

Kraze - The Party
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxQQ04kN6M4

I should not have a verse / chorus structure ? Or is it something else. :)

Basslint
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Basslint » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:38 pm

The first thing that you need to change is the white noise you used instead of the typical open hi hat. You can use white noise there (although it's more of a techno/tech house thing, AFAIK), just not something as aggressive as your current sound :shock:

You also need some processing on those vocals, to make them either warmer or stronger, depends on what kind of sounds you are after. You might try pitch shifting them to add some variation.

But all in all, it's not a bad attempt! Good job!

And in house music you definitely don't need to have any choruses, don't worry :D
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. [Acts 4:32]

Gps
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Gps » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:54 pm

Thank you, but its not white noise.

Its a default hi hat from LMMS. ( from the folder misc hats)

And this house mix is an example on why I used it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tsZ0GgTjyQ

Don't know if its added because its a mix, but there are more mixes from this guy, they all seem to have this very present hi hat.

One of the track from the mix. Don't know if its typical for this type of house ?
( for my personal preference, I would want to tone down that hi hat a bit..... )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opoduj9Ccjc

Normal hats are not that long I think ?

Basslint
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Basslint » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:25 pm

Gps wrote:Thank you, but its not white noise.

Its a default hi hat from LMMS. ( from the folder misc hats)

And this house mix is an example on why I used it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tsZ0GgTjyQ

Don't know if its added because its a mix, but there are more mixes from this guy, they all seem to have this very present hi hat.

One of the track from the mix. Don't know if its typical for this type of house ?
( for my personal preference, I would want to tone down that hi hat a bit..... )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opoduj9Ccjc

Normal hats are not that long I think ?


To me sounds like white noise with an envelope. It's quite normal for synthesized hi-hats to be shaped out of white noise, so it does not surprise me, and in that LMMS folder there are several other white noise hats.

I think the biggest thing that jumps to my hear about that hi hat is not even its length, but its lack of dynamics.
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. [Acts 4:32]

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bhilmers
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby bhilmers » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:54 pm

It's pretty good! I think you've got all the right elements but need to work on the mix. Mostly, the drums need to sound a bit more aggressive. They should dominate the song. Right now, the organ stabs dominate. I would try and find a better harmony between the kick/snare/hat then add the other elements progressively until you fill out the frequency spectrum.* And then, do a little post processing on the whole mix, like with a compressor that has some harmonic character or maybe some tube/tape saturation.

* I tend to use a spectrum analyzer while I mix to confirm that I'm not crowding anything out or leaving holes in the mix.

Gps
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Gps » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:50 pm

Basslint wrote:
Gps wrote:Thank you, but its not white noise.

Its a default hi hat from LMMS. ( from the folder misc hats)

And this house mix is an example on why I used it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tsZ0GgTjyQ

Don't know if its added because its a mix, but there are more mixes from this guy, they all seem to have this very present hi hat.

One of the track from the mix. Don't know if its typical for this type of house ?
( for my personal preference, I would want to tone down that hi hat a bit..... )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opoduj9Ccjc

Normal hats are not that long I think ?


To me sounds like white noise with an envelope. It's quite normal for synthesized hi-hats to be shaped out of white noise, so it does not surprise me, and in that LMMS folder there are several other white noise hats.

I think the biggest thing that jumps to my hear about that hi hat is not even its length, but its lack of dynamics.


I can't say I am 100% happy with the hi hat sound. How do I add dynamics, or do I need to find a better sample?

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lilith
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby lilith » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:19 pm

Some things that could be improved imo:

-The HiHat is too long and (much) too loud, it should be snappier. You can achieve this by shortening the decay time.
- The Piano needs a bit more warmth (lower freqs) and it doesn't sound well integrated in the mix. Maybe also add a bit more reverb here.
- Vocals louder (maybe with a compressor) and a bit reverb here too
- This saw synths plays the same pattern through the whole song. This becomes a bit boring. Try to make more variations. Not all instruments have
to play at the same time.
- If the kick has reverb try without
- I don't like the chip tune sounds, but that's a matter of taste.

Have you done all your tracks in Linux?
https://soundcloud.com/lilith_93
latest: https://soundcloud.com/lilith_93/days-of-terror
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Gps
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Gps » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:22 pm

bhilmers wrote:It's pretty good! I think you've got all the right elements but need to work on the mix. Mostly, the drums need to sound a bit more aggressive. They should dominate the song. Right now, the organ stabs dominate. I would try and find a better harmony between the kick/snare/hat then add the other elements progressively until you fill out the frequency spectrum.* And then, do a little post processing on the whole mix, like with a compressor that has some harmonic character or maybe some tube/tape saturation.

* I tend to use a spectrum analyzer while I mix to confirm that I'm not crowding anything out or leaving holes in the mix.


I never wanted to side chain, but for allot of edm, you need it. There is no way you get the kick so well heard without any tricks.

I have put a side chain compressor on the kick, in lmms, but can't say I really understand that calf plugin.
The part that confuses me most, I would expect to have to indicate what channel I want to duck when the kick plays.

But if you just add that calf side chain compressor on the kick channel, it already does something. :?

What does not help, there are a few vids about side chaining in LMMS, but they all have a different approach.
For me as a beginner musician and a total noob at mixing that is mostly confusing.

Will have a look for a compressor and or tube / tape saturation, and have a look with a spectrum analyser.

Already have been lowering the volume of the organ ( synth 1 ) , seems I was on the right track there. :)

Its funny, when I started to make music I had never expected the mixing to be so important and hard.
( compared to more simple stuff as learning how to use chords )

Most house music does not have much of a chord progression if any, it's often a loop, with allot of stuff added to hide is very repetitive.

Famous quote:
Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.
:mrgreen:

Gps
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Gps » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:27 am

lilith wrote:Some things that could be improved imo:

-The HiHat is too long and (much) too loud, it should be snappier. You can achieve this by shortening the decay time.
- The Piano needs a bit more warmth (lower freqs) and it doesn't sound well integrated in the mix. Maybe also add a bit more reverb here.
- Vocals louder (maybe with a compressor) and a bit reverb here too
- This saw synths plays the same pattern through the whole song. This becomes a bit boring. Try to make more variations. Not all instruments have
to play at the same time.
- If the kick has reverb try without
- I don't like the chip tune sounds, but that's a matter of taste.

Have you done all your tracks in Linux?


Thank you and yes, all tracks made with LMMS on openSUSE.
From the nightmare of not having vestige, and talking to the suse package builders, that LMMS needs to be compiled with wine support. :P
( because of the lmms forum I learned, that almost all packages builders for all distro's messed this up )

Through compiling LMMS myself, and sometimes getting errors of which even the LMMS devs had no clue on what went wrong.

To these days, were for LMMS on Linux we can download an appimage file. :D

I will have a look at that hi hat. Lets see if I can tweak the envelope.

Not sure I like those sounds you call chip tunes myself that much.
I always seem to struggle in LMMS to make it not sound chip tune.

The Kick is the Kicker from LMMS, it should be easy to make it more a bom then a booom sound.
Or I might go for the 808 kick which is probably used in 99% ? of all house tracks.

Some hystory.
House music started with (funky) disco tracks, mixed in clubs, with a drumcomputer added.
This happened after the dead of disco.

Funny that these days we have daft punk and nu disco. :mrgreen:

Seems they failed to kill disco.

Listening to this classic, that hi hat is shorter then mine, although it might be even louder then mine.
Its that typical (white noise?) house hat though.

MARSHALL JEFFERSON - MOVE YOUR BODY [The House Music Anthem]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAR8cq5Bl94

Gps
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Gps » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:16 am

After thinking about the feedback and having a look, I found that some moron had put reverb on the hi-hat and not a little.

When I removed the reverb and changed mostly the hold of the envelop, instant progress, now it starts to sound as a house hi-hat.
I also took down release and decay though.

Lmms preset, Bright 808 hat. Can't go wrong with anything 808 in house. :P

Also rerouted the bass, it was going to an all instruments channel, now it goes directly to the master channel.

Tweaked the kicker a bit, turned down the knob called end.

Turned down the volume of the organ, and now the bass and drums are most more present.

Not 100% happy yet, but progress.

Basslint
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Basslint » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:06 am

Gps wrote:Turned down the volume of the organ, and now the bass and drums are most more present.


There are some tricks you can use for additional warmth, in particular regarding that organ. Look into virtual analog/tape effects, there are some you can probably find in your distro's repo.

Look into CALF plugins, in particular their Saturator and Tape Simulator. You could also add vinyl hiss in the background via CALF Vinyl, although that depends on your taste!
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. [Acts 4:32]

Gps
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Gps » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:24 am

Added a saturator to the vocal sample, and shortened the note a bit. ( dig it )

The organ is next, I had with a 10 band EQ removed the low end, and undid that.
Also had added calf reverb, which also can be responsible for the sound getting thinner.

Next I will try saturation on the organ , but think I should use a spectrum analyzer now.

Reminds me of listening in QMMP with a Winamp skin, and comparing professional tracks with mine.
Not sure how reliable that spectrum analyzer is, but I think I can draw the conclusion that my tacks lag mid and high end.
Back then had not a clue on how to fix that. Now its the time to take this next step.


I really don't like the interface of Amarok, that why I went looking for something winamp on Linux and found QMMP.
Also was missing the press the J key to search for a track, and the sort options of winamp.
For those that don't know QMMP (with a winamp skin):

Image

Gps
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Gps » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:40 pm

Gonna try this tutorial for side chaining.

A vid from one of the LMMS devs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il0OH4I0-LE

Gps
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby Gps » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:23 am

How to use a spectrum analyser ? :wink:

What I mean is off course how to fix a lack of any freqencies, or do I just need to an instrument that does this? :?

I use easy Q on the master channel, buy the lack of frequencies around 1 - 4 K is way to big, to equalize out.

When I attempt this, it started too sound not fun, as I was expecting,


With the vid from the lmms dev finally succes with side chaining in lmms. For now only the organ is side chained to the kick. :)

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bhilmers
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Re: Dig This -Trying to make house, but feels like I am failing

Postby bhilmers » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:09 am

Gps wrote:How to use a spectrum analyser ? :wink:

A spectrum analyzer helps you confirm with your eyes what you hear (or can't hear). For instance, your monitors might not be able to accurately reproduce frequencies under 100Hz, so a spectrum analyzer will warn you if your sub-bass is too loud or quiet.

One thing you can do is play the music you like through the spectrum analyzer and "see" how other producers mix. After your ears are warmed up, go ahead and remix your track and see if it makes a difference.


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