The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)

[merlyn]

I was intrigued to find the "wrong rhythms". In the days of handwritten scores it was possible to have truly wrong rhythms in that the rhythmic values didn't add up to a bar. MuseScore doesn't let you do that. I found these rhythms that aren't notated correctly :

[Rainmak3r]

I was intrigued to find the "wrong rhythms". In the days of handwritten scores it was possible to have truly wrong rhythms in that the rhythmic values didn't add up to a bar. MuseScore doesn't let you do that. I found these rhythms that aren't notated correctly :

Thanks for looking into this! What bar does this come from? I'm super slow to read music (especially in bass clef), but the "math" seems correct to me, in the sense that the sum of the notes does fit the bar. I guess this is because, as you said, MuseScore simply wouldn't allow me to write too little or too much in any bar, rests included: so the issue isn't the "math", but how the notes are notated instead? Can you elaborate on what the problem is specifically? I can't see anything wrong, which is the main issue probably

[Rainmak3r]

After searching a bit, I think I know what may be wrong: the notation isn't respecting where the beats are, or isn't making it clear enough. I'll have to do a bit of homework to figure out the proper way to notate this part, though, and possibly apply the same logic to other parts of the score that may be affected. Unless you meant something different?

[bluebell]

I was intrigued to find the "wrong rhythms". In the days of handwritten scores it was possible to have truly wrong rhythms in that the rhythmic values didn't add up to a bar. MuseScore doesn't let you do that. I found these rhythms that aren't notated correctly :

[WRONG WRONG WRONG The first bar counts only to 11/8, not to 12/8 = 6/4 as the measure says WRONG WRONG WRONG].

But 1st bars can be an "Auftakt" (German), maybe translated to upbeat, and don't have to be complete as far as I know.

EDIT:
I failed. They sum up to 12/8 = 6/4.

[merlyn]

After searching a bit, I think I know what may be wrong: the notation isn't respecting where the beats are, or isn't making it clear enough. I'll have to do a bit of homework to figure out the proper way to notate this part, though, and possibly apply the same logic to other parts of the score that may be affected. Unless you meant something different?

That's right. To make it easy to read there has to be a note on the main beats -- in 4/4 1 and 3, in 6/4 1 and 4.

To illustrate this take a simple rhythm -- the 1st beat, the and of 2 and the 4th beat. It could be written like this :

This is wrong


This is right


I've heard this called 'the invisible bar line'. Imagine a bar line between beats 2 and 3 in 4/4 and you will always get it right.

If we take one of the rhythms from your piece :



The dotted half note crosses the invisible bar line between beats 3 and 4. Use a tie when that happens like this :



There are a lot of dotted quarter notes in this section, which would make me think 12/8 is a better time signature for this.

I didn't see anywhere else in the whole piece where you crossed the invisible bar line.

[Rainmak3r]

After searching a bit, I think I know what may be wrong: the notation isn't respecting where the beats are, or isn't making it clear enough. I'll have to do a bit of homework to figure out the proper way to notate this part, though, and possibly apply the same logic to other parts of the score that may be affected. Unless you meant something different?

That's right. To make it easy to read there has to be a note on the main beats -- in 4/4 1 and 3, in 6/4 1 and 4.

To illustrate this take a simple rhythm -- the 1st beat, the and of 2 and the 4th beat. It could be written like this :

This is wrong


This is right


I've heard this called 'the invisible bar line'. Imagine a bar line between beats 2 and 3 in 4/4 and you will always get it right.

If we take one of the rhythms from your piece :



The dotted half note crosses the invisible bar line between beats 3 and 4. Use a tie when that happens like this :



There are a lot of dotted quarter notes in this section, which would make me think 12/8 is a better time signature for this.

I didn't see anywhere else in the whole piece where you crossed the invisible bar line.

Thanks for confirming and for the explanation! In the article I read, it explained something similar, showing how you can mess rests up for the same reason. I naively assumed MuseScore would automatically take care of things like this, but it's actually unreasonable to assume it's up to the tool to let you write things properly: otherwise it would be impossible to write syncopated rhythms, for instance, as the tool would "fix" them for you. Or maybe there is an option I'm not aware of?

[merlyn]

I naively assumed MuseScore would automatically take care of things like this, but it's actually unreasonable to assume it's up to the tool to let you write things properly: otherwise it would be impossible to write syncopated rhythms, for instance, as the tool would "fix" them for you. Or maybe there is an option I'm not aware of?

The invisible bar line will only be a factor when you use syncopation. It makes syncopation easier to read. I don't know of any option in MuseScore to do this. Honestly, it's not a big deal For me it's not an abstract rule -- I look at rhythms and think if they'd be easy for me to read. I've made up handwritten 'charts' as they're called in the jazz world for my bandmates and I want to make them as easy to read as possible. You'll get the hang of it in five minutes

[Rainmak3r]

I naively assumed MuseScore would automatically take care of things like this, but it's actually unreasonable to assume it's up to the tool to let you write things properly: otherwise it would be impossible to write syncopated rhythms, for instance, as the tool would "fix" them for you. Or maybe there is an option I'm not aware of?

The invisible bar line will only be a factor when you use syncopation. It makes syncopation easier to read. I don't know of any option in MuseScore to do this. Honestly, it's not a big deal For me it's not an abstract rule -- I look at rhythms and think if they'd be easy for me to read. I've made up handwritten 'charts' as they're called in the jazz world for my bandmates and I want to make them as easy to read as possible. You'll get the hang of it in five minutes

Ah, it looks like there IS an option indeed! https://musescore.org/en/node/298418#comment-965493
I'll have to try it this weekend: maybe on smaller portions of the score first, and maybe later on the whole thing, just to be sure it doesn't mess things up. Incidentally, the whole thread there is very interesting, as they talk of exactly that, and why notation should happen that way. Very enlightening, thanks again for taking the time to find and explain the main issue, it had been eating at me for a while

[PieterPenninckx]

@Rainmak3r , thanks for the music and the score. I downloaded the score so that I can have a look at it and see how you have done it. You have good reasons to be proud on this one: it is really nice. I wouldn't say that it sounds as if it was played by real people, but it comes close to that. Based on my own attempts at using Virtual Playing Orchestra, I believed you could only get a very unbelievable (as in unrealistic) sound out of it ... until you posted this.

I don't consider myself skilled enough to dive into technical details about the composition and orchestration, I think I'd rather learn from you than vice versa. I like the waltz, though I understand your concern about putting together the parts. Maybe it can help to think about your job as a composer/orchestrator/producer/mixer as somebody who guides the listener from one part to the next. Transitions may be noticed and don't have to be seamless, you're not a DJ. I find that coming up with good transitions is harder with pen and paper then when improvising (and it's hard for me to improvise from one existing part to another), so I understand your struggle and I'm afraid I can't offer you much help. If I were you, I would consider the transitions as good enough (I had no problem with the transition at 10:30, for instance) and focus on learning other aspects.

Don't worry too much about the the score (music notation); players will rather play nice music that is written in strange ways than ugly music that is written according to the rules. And if your music is about to be performed, you can ask a trained musician to go over the score. I think the question for now is where to find a nice group of people who can give feedback in a friendly way (but I see there is already some nice feedback in this thread).

Don't think too quickly that your music will not be performed live! Ok, this particular piece requires a too large ensemble, but if you know some amateur players: don't be too shy to ask if they would like to play something (short) from you. Having your music performed by real players, even if it's a small group of amateurs, can be a heavenly experience and a great learning opportunity.

[Rainmak3r]

@Rainmak3r , thanks for the music and the score. I downloaded the score so that I can have a look at it and see how you have done it. You have good reasons to be proud on this one: it is really nice. I wouldn't say that it sounds as if it was played by real people, but it comes close to that. Based on my own attempts at using Virtual Playing Orchestra, I believed you could only get a very unbelievable (as in unrealistic) sound out of it ... until you posted this.

Thanks, this is really appreciated! I did spend quite some time to try and get it to sound good enough: I'm still not very happy with some of the sounds, especially when they're on their own or pop out more, but as part of a texture you can indeed get something that sounds nicely. Hopefully I'll be able to improve the result even more in future attempts: since texture plays an important role, it means I'll have to invest even more time on a good score in the first place.

I don't consider myself skilled enough to dive into technical details about the composition and orchestration, I think I'd rather learn from you than vice versa. I like the waltz, though I understand your concern about putting together the parts. Maybe it can help to think about your job as a composer/orchestrator/producer/mixer as somebody who guides the listener from one part to the next. Transitions may be noticed and don't have to be seamless, you're not a DJ. I find that coming up with good transitions is harder with pen and paper then when improvising (and it's hard for me to improvise from one existing part to another), so I understand your struggle and I'm afraid I can't offer you much help. If I were you, I would consider the transitions as good enough (I had no problem with the transition at 10:30, for instance) and focus on learning other aspects.

That's a good point, thanks! Even though I'm afraid I'll always worry about transitions, one way or the other, especially when I feel I'm trying to tell a story, and so the different parts are indeed related.

Don't worry too much about the the score (music notation); players will rather play nice music that is written in strange ways than ugly music that is written according to the rules. And if your music is about to be performed, you can ask a trained musician to go over the score. I think the question for now is where to find a nice group of people who can give feedback in a friendly way (but I see there is already some nice feedback in this thread).

Fair point

Don't think too quickly that your music will not be performed live! Ok, this particular piece requires a too large ensemble, but if you know some amateur players: don't be too shy to ask if they would like to play something (short) from you. Having your music performed by real players, even if it's a small group of amateurs, can be a heavenly experience and a great learning opportunity.

I'd love that to be the case, but I'm also grounded enough to know that for this symphonic poem it will VERY likely never happen
I do have some hope for the short Elegy I shared some months ago, instead, since that's only piano and cello and only 3 minutes long: a friend abroad, who plays the cello occasionally, already played a few parts in video while I was composing them to give me some feedback, but hopefully someday I'll hear it played in full. I did know a very good cello player, but unfortunately my sister then broke up with him so that's not an option anymore

[sprock]

Thanks! Just this morning I've found out MuseScore is revamping their software, and v4 will integrate much better with external VSTs and stuff like that. They explicitly mentioned NotePerformer, which I've been intrigued by for a long time: apparently they manage to get reasonably good sounding results by just working on the score, so taking advantage of articulations as written there, rather than expecting you to do jumps in order to get the outcome you'd like. I'm really looking forward to that, as it would greatly simplify things, the way I write music.

Jep, I read that as well. (and am really excited about it; NotePerformer is much needed)

Do you have any experience (or know of others who have) with NotePerfomer on Linux (via Wine) or knowledge if this will be possible?

[Rainmak3r]

Thanks! Just this morning I've found out MuseScore is revamping their software, and v4 will integrate much better with external VSTs and stuff like that. They explicitly mentioned NotePerformer, which I've been intrigued by for a long time: apparently they manage to get reasonably good sounding results by just working on the score, so taking advantage of articulations as written there, rather than expecting you to do jumps in order to get the outcome you'd like. I'm really looking forward to that, as it would greatly simplify things, the way I write music.

Jep, I read that as well. (and am really excited about it; NotePerformer is much needed)

Do you have any experience (or know of others who have) with NotePerfomer on Linux (via Wine) or knowledge if this will be possible?

No, I never tried it, also because to my knowledge it's not something you can just use in generic scoring tools: it needs a tight integration in the software that will use it. They only mention Sibelius, Finale and partly Dorico, which means that wine would need to take care of those as well first, and NotePerformer then. While I used Sibelius for a tiny bit ages ago (when I was still using Windows) I haven't touched any of those, and don't plan to.

Now that I think about it, a MuseScore integration may not be enough for us Linux users, if they don't make NotePerformer work on Linux too.

[sprock]

Now that I think about it, a MuseScore integration may not be enough for us Linux users, if they don't make NotePerformer work on Linux too.

That is what I fear.

But I don't know for sure.

When I'll run MuseScore 4 natively on Linux, it might be possible to run NotePerformer via Wine, no?

Just in the way I can use Windows vst in a DAW that runs natively on Linux. As I said, I don't know, but I would assume that it should be theoretically possible when it is working in DAWs already, I would guess.

[Rainmak3r]

Now that I think about it, a MuseScore integration may not be enough for us Linux users, if they don't make NotePerformer work on Linux too.

That is what I fear.

But I don't know for sure.

When I'll run MuseScore 4 natively on Linux, it might be possible to run NotePerformer via Wine, no?

Just in the way I can use Windows vst in a DAW that runs natively on Linux. As I said, I don't know, but I would assume that it should be theoretically possible when it is working in DAWs already, I would guess.

I guess that depends on how they'll do the integration: they might decide to just disable it for Linux builds, for instance. It might not be as simple as using LinVST for instance, especially if the required integration effort is tighter than that. Fingers crossed!

In the meanwhile, I've downloaded the BBC Symphony Orchestra Discover library by Spitfire Audio: a friend suggested it since it's free if you fill in a questionnaire. I haven't had the chance to start playing with it yet, even though if I suspect it will be much more CPU intensive than using VPO, since each instrument would need its own wine instance for the VST.

[sprock]

In the meanwhile, I've downloaded the BBC Symphony Orchestra Discover library by Spitfire Audio: a friend suggested it since it's free if you fill in a questionnaire. I haven't had the chance to start playing with it yet, even though if I suspect it will be much more CPU intensive than using VPO, since each instrument would need its own wine instance for the VST.

Yes, I've heard about that one before.

This sounds convincing:

https://youtu.be/HjOS4AfqoEs

https://youtu.be/9RO0xiXH9Cg

Pity is only that there are no solo instruments (especially needed with winds and brass). But can't complain about a free product.

Please report and let us know when/if you've done something with it.