The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
I listened to your piece on the Musescore site while following the score. I didn't see anything in the notation that looked wrong. Was the criticism of the writing or the layout of the score?
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
You can find the exact comments on this thread. I didn't appreciate the tone of the guy much (my reply could have been more polite, I guess), but eventually he provided some more constructive criticism.
The simpler things he pointed out were that I forgot to upload the transposed score (I fixed that in the meanwhile), assigned the wrong notes to some instruments (e.g., how a chord is spread between horns, fair point too), and didn't put explicit dynamics for some instruments, especially after long pauses (which is reasonable, players are not a MIDI sequencers that remember everything!), or wrote them in the wrong place (a rest instead of the note they should start from). Apart from that, apparently the greatest issue was in how I notated rhythms (timpani, cymbali, bass drum; unless he meant something else too?), but I'm not sure what he meant here: I thought he mentioned my use of tremolos instead of trills for timani rolls, but it looks like that's correct (trills are an outdated notation for that). I'll probably have to re-read the whole chapter in Samuel Adler's book, even though I'd have to verify whether or not MuseScore supports that notation.
There was probably more he didn't mention, since inspecting 50 pages of a score can indeed be daunting and so obviously I can't fault him for not checking everything: I'm really glad he took the time to at least look at some of them! I'm pretty sure, for instance, that the way I wrote the harp is incorrect, since you're supposed to mark how pedals are configured (harps cannot play a chromatic scale) and so I may have written chords that might not be physically playable. Whether the dynamics I chose are correct or not is also a big question mark, since instruments don't have the same "power" on their whole playable range, and so it's very hard to know if a part you wrote will be audible the way you conceived it (e.g., what if the brass section or percussion cover everything, or if the oboe is too loud/low?). Percussion in particular are something that I very likely messed up: Rimsky-Korsakov writes that one of the most common mistakes by beginners is abusing percussions, without realizing that they can very easily cover ALL other instruments when they play.
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
Thinking about it, I don't think he was talking of percussions at all, but was referring to the times instead, e.g., wrong choices when using a 6/8 or a 3/4 somewhere. He may have a good point there, as there are some "crazy" tempo changes that don't really reflect in the music. This is probably one of the areas that will be the hardest for me to get right, though, especially without formal music training.
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
I see. I wonder if that guy has ever had a piece performed by an orchestra. These details would be relevant if the piece was going to be performed. I'm obviously not up to the same standard as this guy (the super-composer) but to follow along with a score a concert score is also good -- it's pretty hard transposing in your head
I liked the fact I could look at the score, and unless you've got a commission from The Berlin Philharmonic coming up, these details are only the icing on the cake. Keep sharing your scores.
I liked the fact I could look at the score, and unless you've got a commission from The Berlin Philharmonic coming up, these details are only the icing on the cake. Keep sharing your scores.
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
He does make fair points, though: this will VERY likely never be performed by an orchestra (in my wildest dreams, maybe!), but I should have written it as if it could have been. I worked on the score first, and the Ardour+VPO rendering only at the very last, exactly because I wanted to focus on the score and make it "believable", without being influenced (too much) by the constraints/limitations/features of virtual orchestration. But I do understand that this won't happen overnight, and that I'll have to improve over time...merlyn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:32 am I see. I wonder if that guy has ever had a piece performed by an orchestra. These details would be relevant if the piece was going to be performed. I'm obviously not up to the same standard as this guy (the super-composer) but to follow along with a score a concert score is also good -- it's pretty hard transposing in your head
I liked the fact I could look at the score, and unless you've got a commission from The Berlin Philharmonic coming up, these details are only the icing on the cake. Keep sharing your scores.
Thanks for the kind words, and I'll definitely share the scores for any classical effort I'll work on next!
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
Cool. Is it a common practice to upload two versions? One transposed and one untransposed? With an untransposed score it's possible to see what the harmony is doing more easily, at least for me.
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
Not sure how that works. It's exactly the same file, though: you just hit a button that shows concert pitch vs transposed one, nothing else you need to do. I used the concert pitch to write because it was obviously easier, and after that feedback I uploaded the file again with concert pitch disabled. I think you can just download the MuseScore file from that page, and if you open it in MuseScore you'll just need to hit that button to see it displayed differently.
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
Props to you for putting yourself out there. Classical musicians and composers really put the time in to become experts in their craft, and that makes classical music a bit of an ivory tower. Not surprised that you encountered a bit of snobbery at the classical forum, but you have taken the right approach to the criticism.Rainmak3r wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:56 amUnfortunately it looks like my score sucks quite badly: I posted this on a classical forum as well, and a guy pretty much bashed me for my super-amateurish skills. I managed to get some tips on what was particularly wrong, but I don't think I'll ever get to a point where it actually is a believable classical score: the fact I never got any formal training is probably the main reason, and no matter how many books I read or tutorials I follow, I guess it's reasonable to assume I'll never be as good as those who dedicated years of their life to study exactly that.
Anyway, I don't plan that to stop me: I've already started collecting ideas for another symphonic poem (which will sound more like a soundtrack probably, though), and I still have the symphony to finish. I doubt the scores will look any better than this, but hopefully the music will.
Incidentally, that's part of what I love about this forum. I am a bit of a sociophobe, so I have a hyperacute fear of criticism. But Linux musicians tend to be hobbyists and much less snobby about the music. (Although we can be plenty snobby about the software we use.) Most of us are learning as we go, and it is neat to see what other people are experimenting with. Posting a track here doesn't feel like running the gauntlet.
And the task here is not really to satisfy the masses, or that random guy on the snob forum, but to satisfy our audience of one. And part of that satisfaction comes from seeing the progress we are making and counting all of the things we have learned. So, yeah. Keep on marchin', slugger!
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
I read the other thread. Yes, that person was being unnecessarily condescending, but I think you handled it fine. I think it's funny that you used the word "amateurish". Let's be honest, you and most of us on this forum are amateurs. There's nothing wrong with that, you're writing up scores and doing virtual orchestration for fun.
One time some coworkers and I were playing an online game at lunch time. Some random players from the internet completely destroyed us, and in the end game one of them had some very unkind insulting words to say. The silly thing is that they had probably put hundreds or thousands of hours into practicing that game, so it wasn't really fair to say such things because everybody has to start somewhere.
One time some coworkers and I were playing an online game at lunch time. Some random players from the internet completely destroyed us, and in the end game one of them had some very unkind insulting words to say. The silly thing is that they had probably put hundreds or thousands of hours into practicing that game, so it wasn't really fair to say such things because everybody has to start somewhere.
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
Like Icarus, I've flown too close to the sky!milo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:55 pm Props to you for putting yourself out there. Classical musicians and composers really put the time in to become experts in their craft, and that makes classical music a bit of an ivory tower. Not surprised that you encountered a bit of snobbery at the classical forum, but you have taken the right approach to the criticism.
I 100% agree with you on this: I don't think I would ever been able to publish so many tracks in so little time, and get slightly better attempt after attempt, hadn't it been for the amazing atmosphere and people in this forum! You guys are all great and always provide excellent feedback to improve, you can't ask for anything bettermilo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:55 pm Incidentally, that's part of what I love about this forum. I am a bit of a sociophobe, so I have a hyperacute fear of criticism. But Linux musicians tend to be hobbyists and much less snobby about the music. (Although we can be plenty snobby about the software we use.) Most of us are learning as we go, and it is neat to see what other people are experimenting with. Posting a track here doesn't feel like running the gauntlet.
And the task here is not really to satisfy the masses, or that random guy on the snob forum, but to satisfy our audience of one. And part of that satisfaction comes from seeing the progress we are making and counting all of the things we have learned. So, yeah. Keep on marchin', slugger!
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
Oh that might have been a poor choice of words on my end, sorry: I meant amateurish as an adjective of amateur (whivh I guess is an adjective already, when not used as a noun?), rather than "a bit amateur" as the -ish might have suggested. I know I'm very much an amateur, probably even worse than thatMichael Willis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:00 pm I read the other thread. Yes, that person was being unnecessarily condescending, but I think you handled it fine. I think it's funny that you used the word "amateurish". Let's be honest, you and most of us on this forum are amateurs. There's nothing wrong with that, you're writing up scores and doing virtual orchestration for fun.
I always remember something one of our professors at the University said: paraphrasing, he said that if you write code for 30 minutes a day, you'll be a "30 minutes a day" programmer; if you write code for 4 hours a day, you'll be a "4 hours a day" programmer. I guess that, while debatable if you take it too seriously, what he meant was that practicing a skill IS important to master it (and he didn't want us to be lazy with his course probably ). The same can be said for music: someone studying in a music school will have devoted 10 years to that every single day, and that will always and inevitably show. Let's enjoy the little time we can devote to that passion anyway!Michael Willis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:00 pm One time some coworkers and I were playing an online game at lunch time. Some random players from the internet completely destroyed us, and in the end game one of them had some very unkind insulting words to say. The silly thing is that they had probably put hundreds or thousands of hours into practicing that game, so it wasn't really fair to say such things because everybody has to start somewhere.
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
I won't quote everyone but there are some great comments in this thread (merlyn/Milo/Michael etc)
As I get older I find myself less capable technically and motivationally but one mantra I've always championed is being creative. So, for me, that guy can criticise your technical handling of writing the score (as long as it's done in a non-condescending way) but don't get hung up on that. What's important is that you created a lovely piece of music, something unique but also good, something of quality. That's there for posterity, for everyone to listen to and enjoy.
Bottom line: any number of people could improve the transposition of the music to a score but only you could create it. That's something special
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
Sadly I am not an expert of the genre, although I've encountered it before; shame on me for focusing on rock music for so long!
Still, I really appreciate it and above all the fact that you are trying your hand at composition, it's very a hard hybrid of art and science folks!
Still, I really appreciate it and above all the fact that you are trying your hand at composition, it's very a hard hybrid of art and science folks!
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Jam on openSUSE + GeekosDAW!
Please donate time (even bug reports) or money to libre software
Jam on openSUSE + GeekosDAW!
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
Oh I 100% agree: there's nothing like the feeling you experience when new ideas come to mind (especially when you start wondering about where that idea came from, and what inspiration really is), and you try to make them real!turbidh20 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:19 pm I won't quote everyone but there are some great comments in this thread (merlyn/Milo/Michael etc)
As I get older I find myself less capable technically and motivationally but one mantra I've always championed is being creative. So, for me, that guy can criticise your technical handling of writing the score (as long as it's done in a non-condescending way) but don't get hung up on that. What's important is that you created a lovely piece of music, something unique but also good, something of quality. That's there for posterity, for everyone to listen to and enjoy.
Bottom line: any number of people could improve the transposition of the music to a score but only you could create it. That's something special
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Re: The Wind and the Lake (classical / symphonic poem)
Never feel ashamed for waving the rock'n roll flag!
Let's hope I won't end up with an explosion, sometimes I do feel like I'm playing with a kid chemistry set