My Third Production

[forestandgarden]

@42low although this has abolutlely nothing to do with finotti's song anymore, I'm glad that you picked it up. I had really given this some thought, my logic being that, if a guy or gal does 1 person homerecording and programs bass, synths and drums, the resulting project is also 'virtual'. Even if he/she is multitracking real instruments, the possibility to represent more than 1 person is virtual, too, and arguably, all recorded music is. So I found that 'virtual' can mean many things and could even mislead people to assume the subforum was about the art of creating musical bots. Maybe similar misunderstandings are possible with 'Collaborative', but I haven't found any and believe it's a good spot-on definition of what is distinctive about the section. It's also the word paticipants often use inside the threads there.

if we need to continue this debate, it would be polite to do it in the 'About Virtual Music Projects' - thread, I'll occasionally check, but for my part, all is said, basically

[finotti]

I assume you mean lower the delays/reverb? I will give it a try and see. I do like reverbs/delay too much, I guess. Thanks for the comment!

If this was your goal and you like it, who am i to say something about it. Only try to help by giving some direction. Do (or don't) with it what you want.

Sorry if my comment sounded dismissive. It was not my intention, although I can see how it might have sounded that way. I meant more that my liking to reverb/delay might cause me to overdo it. Moreover, as the comments here prove, sometimes you can't see (actually hear, in this case) a flaw until someone points it out to you and you A/B the results.

So, I honestly thank you for your comment and will definitely try it. I may or may not follow your advice, but constructive criticism (like yours) is always welcome.

I don't know how you've done it, but i mean the guitars in that time-lap which sound like there far away. The 'hall' sound louder than the main guitar sound. This sounds like the guitar(s) is totally at the back of the hall.
IMO it mutes the original guitar sound too much, with unclear sound as result.

Even if you like reverb/delay a lot, I would have kept the guitar sound on the front and then if you wished a lot of reverb/delay behind it.
And later in the song the guitars do get clearer.

I am just having a hard time following how to accomplish putting the delay/reverb "behind", if not by lowering the levels.

So, here is what is done: single guitar goes in mono (passing through an impulse response) and the aux sends to a long delay, a short delay (almost a reverb effect) and a plate reverb (all in stereo), with their levels mixed "to taste". (I almost took out the reverb itself, but liked the mix of short delay with reverb...)

Now all the leads are the same (no automation). Only in that part you see the reverb problem?

I will try to back those (delay/rev) and see...

Anyway, I have a new tentative mix, with the guitar a little back (and other very minor tweaks). Please do let me know if it is better and if you have any further comments! Here it is: http://luisfinotti.org/music/files/Stol ... _11.51.mp3

BIG THUMBS UP!

There seems to be much truth in what ufug said:

, but there is a real art to getting the fader to sit in just the right spot in the first place.

Small change, big difference: the impression of 'loneliness' of the guitar in the mix is gone, it's a part now without having ceased to be a lead, and as a side effect, more details of the accompainment get noticed in some places.

Thanks! As I've mentioned above, it is funny how you don't see something until it's pointed out to you. I also like the new mix better. Thank you (and ufug!) for your comments.

[
Thanks, thus, for the opportunity to compare these relatively similar mixes, it's a highly welcome training for the ear. I wonder if I will be able to spot the 'other very minor tweaks', Are the 'berserk drums' in the run up to 4:02 one of them, that is, very slightly more prominent, or was that my imagination?

(Again, thank you!) No, it is not your imagination. That part was meant to feature the drums and I've used some automation to raise up the level of the drums... Overdone? (I will listen to it again and try to compare a couple of different mixes.)

[forestandgarden]

Overdone? (I will listen to it again and try to compare a couple of different mixes.)

No, man, not at all. It was your remark on 'minor tweaks' that challenged me, so I took it as a find-the-egg game. Doing A/B comparison on a whole song is new for me, so your feedback helps me to gage how much I can trust my brain, ears and monitors Thanx.

And at the risk of re-iterating: if I were you, I would probably let the project sit and rest for a while after so much work, but I am not you, and I am aware that sometimes one even has creative rushes that last 72h with no sleep.

[AlexTheBassist]

Liked the song itself really much (like I was teleported back to 80s, which was even before I was born), but the mix could be much better. First of all, synth strings are masking everything else the mix has, which is plainly wrong. Try balancing instruments with gentle frequency cuts, not only by moving faders here and there. Secondly, I'd use other drum machine, since we have a plenty to choose from. This one is too robotic, more like a rehearsal instrument rather than a real one. Try DrumGizmo, it can do amazing things. It's really hard to route and mix it, but once you're familiar with that, your production quality flies up to the moon compared to what was before. Drumkit sound is one of the most crucial things in any mix, a change in drums can change everything else. The third aspect I'd focus my attention on is the delay. To make it sound perfectly in time, you either need a calculator or a delay that has musical settings (Calf Vintage Delay has them, for example). Fourth, it's better to have all those reverbs and delays on separate busses and filter/EQ them, at least not without a highpass filter. Fifth, use a M/S equalizer on master bus and cut everything below 150 Hz in side channel. This will clear up your low end without making it thin and weak.

The instrumental, by the way, is really cool. Can I have source tracks for remixing? I'd really like to play with that stuff.

[finotti]

Thanks for taking the time to listen and comment!

Liked the song itself really much (like I was teleported back to 80s, which was even before I was born), but the mix could be much better.

Agreed.

First of all, synth strings are masking everything else the mix has, which is plainly wrong. Try balancing instruments with gentle frequency cuts, not only by moving faders here and there.

I tried... I like the synths in the front, but certainly not masking the rest.

Secondly, I'd use other drum machine, since we have a plenty to choose from. This one is too robotic, more like a rehearsal instrument rather than a real one. Try DrumGizmo, it can do amazing things. It's really hard to route and mix it, but once you're familiar with that, your production quality flies up to the moon compared to what was before. Drumkit sound is one of the most crucial things in any mix, a change in drums can change everything else.

It is DrumGizmo, with the CrocellKit.

The third aspect I'd focus my attention on is the delay. To make it sound perfectly in time, you either need a calculator or a delay that has musical settings (Calf Vintage Delay has them, for example).

I've done that. It's Calf's delay, synced to the beat.

Fourth, it's better to have all those reverbs and delays on separate busses and filter/EQ them, at least not without a highpass filter.

I did exactly that (again), separate bus with filters.

Fifth, use a M/S equalizer on master bus and cut everything below 150 Hz in side channel. This will clear up your low end without making it thin and weak.

Although I did not do this, I did something similar, which was to use Calf's Multiband Enhancer, and pulled the low-end to the center with it, and spread the highs a little bit.

So, as you can see, I've done my homework, i.e., I know the theory, but I am struggling to get good mixes. (I'm working on a song now that is driving me crazy... But, in my defense, Stolen was my 3rd mix ever, and this one giving me trouble is the 5th...) I wish I could sit with someone with real experience to get some pointers. And I appreciate all your input! But, as you can see, I tried almost all your suggestions. I just suck at it.

The instrumental, by the way, is really cool.

Thanks!

Can I have source tracks for remixing? I'd really like to play with that stuff.

Sure! I just need to find a time to export the stems. (I am not sure if I already archived or not. Anyway, sooner or later I will get them and contact you by PM, if that's OK.) I'd like to hear a better mix and would appreciate any pointers you can give me!

[AlexTheBassist]

It is DrumGizmo, with the CrocellKit.

That's strange… Maybe it's the source then? How many velocity levels does it have? My main kits for DrumGizmo are MuldjordKit and Aasimonster. They are very well sampled and very flexible in means of processing. Never tried that kit before though, should give it a chance.

I did exactly that (again), separate bus with filters.

Try EQing them a little more. For instance, a must is a gentle and a relatively wide wide cut in 800-1500 Hz range, this makes reverbs and delays sound a lot cleaner, not clogging the original sound. Try searching for other frequency conflicts too, cleaning up your buses gives you that spacious feel found on “big” recordings.

Although I did not do this, I did something similar, which was to use Calf's Multiband Enhancer, and pulled the low-end to the center with it, and spread the highs a little bit.

That's probably not the best option, but definitely should work. I think (because my experience tells me so) that a simple but subtle saturation on master bus gets a mix more exciting than this new fancy thing. Also, if you suddenly feel a need for a wider stereo (which is almost always impractical due to the fact that people actually like more balanced mid channel, as they don't always sit in a sweet spot while listening to music), you can just lower mid volume with tools like Calf Stereo. Remember that any stereo image widening or narrowing, especially algorithmic (i.e. not based on M/S level adjustments, but rather on Haas effect, comb filtering, etc) is phase changing, sometimes too much, thus it should be applied carefully and checked in mono as well.

Anyway, sooner or later I will get them and contact you by PM, if that's OK.

Sure, I'll wait for your message. I'm always eager to mix anything new.

By the way, did you have any mixing experience besides Linux and Ardour?

[finotti]

Sorry for the delay in replying... (Work has been very busy...)

It is DrumGizmo, with the CrocellKit.

That's strange… Maybe it's the source then? How many velocity levels does it have? My main kits for DrumGizmo are MuldjordKit and Aasimonster. They are very well sampled and very flexible in means of processing. Never tried that kit before though, should give it a chance.

I am not sure about velocity levels, but it's their largest kit and the DG guys say that: "this is by far the most thoroughly sampled kit we've ever created. Just the snare alone consist of almost 100 different hits." And I did try to vary the velocities quite a bit in the MIDI programing... (BTW, I am not blaming the kit, I am sure it's just my lack of skills mixing.)

I do prefer the toms from the MuldjordKit (maybe even the whole kit), but the CrocellKit has a lot more instruments...

I did exactly that (again), separate bus with filters.

Try EQing them a little more. For instance, a must is a gentle and a relatively wide wide cut in 800-1500 Hz range, this makes reverbs and delays sound a lot cleaner, not clogging the original sound. Try searching for other frequency conflicts too, cleaning up your buses gives you that spacious feel found on “big” recordings.

I will give it a try.

Although I did not do this, I did something similar, which was to use Calf's Multiband Enhancer, and pulled the low-end to the center with it, and spread the highs a little bit.

That's probably not the best option, but definitely should work. I think (because my experience tells me so) that a simple but subtle saturation on master bus gets a mix more exciting than this new fancy thing. Also, if you suddenly feel a need for a wider stereo (which is almost always impractical due to the fact that people actually like more balanced mid channel, as they don't always sit in a sweet spot while listening to music), you can just lower mid volume with tools like Calf Stereo. Remember that any stereo image widening or narrowing, especially algorithmic (i.e. not based on M/S level adjustments, but rather on Haas effect, comb filtering, etc) is phase changing, sometimes too much, thus it should be applied carefully and checked in mono as well.

Thanks for the tips! (BTW, the master had some tape saturation.)

Anyway, sooner or later I will get them and contact you by PM, if that's OK.

Sure, I'll wait for your message. I'm always eager to mix anything new.

By the way, did you have any mixing experience besides Linux and Ardour?

No, as again, that was only my third mix ever. I've never had worked in any audio production myself. (I've recorded a couple of demos in the past, but only played in them.)

I noticed that I had a tweaked mix that I did not post. (The links here were my first attempt and tweaks after the comments from forum members.) Although I am sure it will not have fixed much (if anything at all), but here is the latest version: http://luisfinotti.org/music/files/Stol ... _05.58.mp3

Anyway, soon things will calm down at work and I will be able to send you the stems.

Thanks!

[psyocean]

Very cool track, big work, melodic and power!

[tavasti]

Really great track! Mixing sounds somehow bit oldish, but with my skills I can't say how to get them better.

If you would release it in spotify, I definitely would add this to my collection, it is real pro quality.
Releasing on spotify and all other major services is available also for free, https://routenote.com/ offers free plan. In case you want to thank me for this advice, give my code 2f750c92 as referal there. I have released one track this far,, and I'm going to release more, althou my tracks are far behind yours

[finotti]

Thanks, psyocean and tavasti for the kind words! I really appreciate it!