Augenleuchten

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jonetsu
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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby jonetsu » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:12 am

bluebell wrote:Thx. The Triangle is very tricky to mix because of its high frequency range. In my headphones it tends to be too loud, with HiFi or car speakers it tends to be too low. Not easy.


When converting from mp3 to wav to make a CD for the car, I noticed that the waves in general are certainly not like regular commercial productions. The density is on the light side, with regular elongated peaks. I compared Augenleuchten with a smoother commercial song, Stiller from Wir Sind Helden. Even though the WSH song is smoother, the frequency packing stays dense up to a fair amount. I presume this assures good hearing in many conditions. In doing so, it could be that it becomes not so difficult to blend in sounds such as the triangle as it will not stick out so strongly. It could be that it is not possible to simply add the triangle into the mix but rather, adding it means adjusting everything else to cope with.

See attached. - Tschüß.
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jonetsu
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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby jonetsu » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:26 am

bluebell wrote:In Master-Out I am working with CALF EQ, CALF multiband compressor, CALF saturator and CALF multiband limiter to get the same richtness as with Jamin in the earlier songs. The integrated mastering tool Jamin was ahead of its time, I think. Kudos to the coders. And of course to the CALF team as well.


Just maybe, before using any mutiband anything (which mostly belong to the mastering stage, as Jamin also claims to be) a more balanced mix could offer a better landscape for mastering thereafter.

This is not Open Source, but is quite a good compressor (considering the limitations of choice in Linux) that can enhance nicely the aliveness of instruments recorded in separate tracks in separate sessions (eg, not a live band in which people can exchange glances between themselves when playing) :

https://www.u-he.com/cms/presswerk

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bluebell
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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby bluebell » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:52 pm

jonetsu wrote:
bluebell wrote:Thx. The Triangle is very tricky to mix because of its high frequency range. In my headphones it tends to be too loud, with HiFi or car speakers it tends to be too low. Not easy.


When converting from mp3 to wav to make a CD for the car, I noticed that the waves in general are certainly not like regular commercial productions. The density is on the light side, with regular elongated peaks. I compared Augenleuchten with a smoother commercial song, Stiller from Wir Sind Helden. Even though the WSH song is smoother, the frequency packing stays dense up to a fair amount. I presume this assures good hearing in many conditions. In doing so, it could be that it becomes not so difficult to blend in sounds such as the triangle as it will not stick out so strongly. It could be that it is not possible to simply add the triangle into the mix but rather, adding it means adjusting everything else to cope with.

See attached. - Tschüß.


The waves' picture depends on the arrangement. I have some stops/breaks, so there are some "holes".

Furthermore, many commercial productions are compressed much more than mine. They're not even afraid of hard clipping to make the song louder.
I don't go this far. I try to get a balanced mix of loudness and transparency and I don't want to wipe the different levels (loud and low parts) completely.
Linux – MOTU UltraLite AVB – Qtractor – https://soundcloud.com/suedwestlicht

jonetsu
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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby jonetsu » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:16 pm

bluebell wrote:The waves' picture depends on the arrangement. I have some stops/breaks, so there are some "holes".

Furthermore, many commercial productions are compressed much more than mine. They're not even afraid of hard clipping to make the song louder.
I don't go this far. I try to get a balanced mix of loudness and transparency and I don't want to wipe the different levels (loud and low parts) completely.


There is one drop, one hole in Augenleuchten, and this is normal because the music goes that way. There are some like this in any commercial production if it goes mellow for a while. Regarding clipping, I'd say that Stiller stays very clear from it with, say, 1-2mm (!) space before the end of the graph, on both sides. At least after normalization. Whereas Augenleuchten "reaches for the top", with the middle part showing the most striking discrepancy between the core and the spikes.

Just an observation since you mentioned that the triangle was not easy to mix in, with varying results depending on the audio system it was played on.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the music which is excellent.

jonetsu
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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby jonetsu » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:31 pm

beck wrote:Just a question out of couriosity. No critic or discussion.

Is this a problem? I find it sounding great. Should it then be like 'regular' and not may be a bit different then normal?
Or is there a technical argument for that statement that i overlook?


When audio events are grouped together they offer several benefits. Of course, there's the one about loudness, although it is not the only one. Grouping audio events does not mean necessarily to go for louder output and suppressing dynamic range. As far as I see it, when audio events are closer together they become easier to blend together, especially for sounds that may otherwise stick out too loudly. It also helps in having music played on various types of audio systems. When mixing and mastering it is possible to test on several audio systems, but it is still limited. There is at least one studio that offers a "listening car" in its parking space for customers to listen to their mix in production. By looking at the wave form it is possible to see how good it will be on many systems since there can be wide differences in dynamic response from audio players. It is possible to view this approach as being "too commercial" although IMHO I think it just makes sense, for public commercial diffusion where people actually pay for music.

This said, I still find that the Südwestlicht pieces are great and sound nice as they are. Although likely they can even be better. I wouldn't go to the extent of comparing waves if I would not like the music in the first place ! :)

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bluebell
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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby bluebell » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:50 pm

jonetsu wrote:This said, I still find that the Südwestlicht pieces are great and sound nice as they are. Although likely they can even be better. I wouldn't go to the extent of comparing waves if I would not like the music in the first place ! :)


Sure there's some room for improvements.
There is still a lot for me to learn, an ever lasting journey.
Linux – MOTU UltraLite AVB – Qtractor – https://soundcloud.com/suedwestlicht

jonetsu
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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby jonetsu » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:00 pm

beck wrote:Aspecialy this one was one i should have known. :cry: Because this one for me often is the reason to use some slight distortion or reverb to make a played session smother than i actualy realy can, or to cover up some played 'mistakes' when playing the guitar (like bad hit snair of horrible put down tone finger).

Man, do i still have a lot to learn. Love it. :mrgreen:


There are a lot of people out there waiting for money to "teach" mixing and such. I consider myself lucky to not have fallen into over-advertised traps with not-so-good information. Only by hazard and chance did I find one guy that actually shows the art. Very humble guy with about 30 gold records behind him (Whitney Houston, David Byrne, Bowie, Rolling Stones, James Taylor, etc...) but moreover, with this characteristic of a teacher that actually makes the subject contagious. Many teachers only deliver material as a job. This guy also carries over passion. Is name is Michael White and while he has paid courses, he also offers a lot for free. Like the on-going Fundamentals of Mixing series in which last week saw part 24. All of his classes are done live, not as highly crafted business delivery but rather as in a regular class. He holds weekly on-line classes that lasts approx. 2.5 hrs.

https://blog.music-production-guide.net ... of-mixing/

The notion of a 3D audio field is quite important. Mix mapping is another one. Subtractive EQ another. Also important is the sequence in which things are done.

There is also a Recording Fundamentals free course.

He also has high esteem for Harrison's 32C consoles although he haven't tried Mixbus 32C yet, Harrison's product based on Ardour who they also help financing.

I have no stake in the Michael White's school, I am following some of the courses right now, and I thought of sharing what I find is a wonderful source of information and passion on the subject. If I see one 'drawback', is that one has to invest time to follow. This is not delivered for the TLDR; and short attention span crowds.

Tschüß

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bluebell
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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby bluebell » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:39 am

jonetsu wrote:"Alles was du willst" is quite good too, notwithstanding the triangle which ought to go away.


Thanks for the suggestion. I listened again and I'll do a remix. I won't kill the triangle completely but put it more in the background.
Linux – MOTU UltraLite AVB – Qtractor – https://soundcloud.com/suedwestlicht

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Riddemtronic
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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby Riddemtronic » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:41 am

Fabuloso!!!!! Well done mate, excellent through and through. Nice mix of differing genres, sounds great.

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Re: Augenleuchten

Postby folderol » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:26 pm

Very impressive.
This is one of those occasions where I don't even think about the production. It's all there and nicely wrapped up, so I can just sit back and enjoy :D


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