Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

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blockflute
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Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by blockflute »

Following on from my earlier question about using one of these: I bought a UMC22 which arrived this morning and I have been trying it out. Given that it has a mic pre-amp I expected the gain to be quite good, but it's terrible. At the moment, my fairly constant problem is isolating the exact cause of any specific problem, as I don't have any extra kit to swap around. In order to be able to try an external mic, and before spending more serious money on a good quality one, I bought a very cheap dynamic mic. It's called a Rock Jam and came from Amazon. It has a fixed lead ending in a 1/4" jack. It works perfectly well if I plug it directly into my laptop and record something on Audacity. If I connect it via the Behringer, it's so quiet that it's barely audible. Doesn't matter if I use jack or alsa directly. It's quiet anyway: if I use the Direct Monitor so not using the computer at all, it's still very quiet. If I pretty much shout into it I can trigger the green signal light, but I have to pretty much tap it with gain on max to trigger the clipping warning red light.

However poor the quality might be, the mic does work, so I have no idea whether it's just the wrong type of mic to go with the Behringer, or if the latter is faulty. The Behringer says the mic input accepts either XLR or jack.

Sorry this isn't a very linux-specific question - a quick google shows up other people reporting the same issue, but no very clear answer, so I'm throwing myself on your collective mercy here!
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bluzee
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by bluzee »

Looking at the UMC22 it seems as if the input 1 is mic level on the XLR or line level on the 1/4". Input 2 appears to be instrument level only on 1/4". I suspect your 1/4 mic plugged into input 1 would bypass the mic pre and be selected at line level and barely audible. Plugging into input 2 might work better, but could be impedance mismatch or perhaps too hot for that input.

Ideally you should use XLR for microphones. The XLR mic pre on that UMC22 is the same as what I have on a UMC404HD and it has sufficient gain for all my dynamic and condenser microphones. I primarily use it for electric guitar though. The 404 has 3 in 1 plugs and an instrument switch for each. I only need to move the gain control to about 25% for a guitar.
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by blockflute »

Thank you!
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by blockflute »

I have bought a Shure mic with XLR cable (a PGA57 which is middle-of-the-road, should be good enough quality for me). I have also bought a jack to XLR adaptor for cheap microphone so I have some means of comparison.

Whichever one I use, the input level seems very low. I have tried lots of combinations (different microphones, different computers, using alsa, using jack) and the problem is the same. I realise the ideal is to be quite close to the mic: at the moment I have the mic on a basic desk stand and con get it about 15cm from sound source. I have ordered a decent mic stand which will make it easier to get closer. However, I really don't know if there is a problem with the AI or this is just how it is supposed to be. The mic gain on the AI does make a difference, but whereas I would expect it to go from silent to overloaded, it goes from silent to barely audible.

Using Ardour and Jack, with the recording gain on Ardour set at its default 0dB and the mic gain on the AI set to max, mic positioned as above, I can get about -20 peak amplitude on the mixer. For comparison, using either my $5 microphone through the basic soundcard, or my average quality usb condenser mic, I can easily reach and exceed 0dB and I don't have to be right next to the mic to do it.

The only thing that I can't swap for something else to test is the AI. I have absolutely no idea whether what I'm experiencing is normal, or the AI is faulty and I should send it back. It doesn't seem quite right that I can achieve better results with a $5 mic than with a $50 mic and a proper interface.

While googling around I found someone claiming to have had the same problem with a more expensive AI that had to have the input sensitivity switched from line to mic even for the mic socket, and that the only way to do this was to use some sort of interface program on a Windows machine. I can't find anything in the documentation about selecting an input sensitivity level on my Behringer so I assume this is not the issue.
Last edited by blockflute on Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
CrocoDuck
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by CrocoDuck »

Only thing I can think of after reading through this: if your microphone requires phantom power, you will need to flick the +48V switch on the back of the interface. Your Shure does not require phantom, so it does smell like a faulty preamp...
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by merlyn »

blockflute wrote: For comparison, using either my $5 microphone through the basic soundcard, or my average quality usb condenser mic, I can easily reach and exceed 0dB and I don't have to be right next to the mic to do it.
That's not good, is it? Going over 0dB. So you're comparing consumer gear overloading with higher quality gear that doesn't overload. Not overloading is preferable.

-20dB is a bit low but with 24 bit recording it's OK. Dynamic mics can cope with a singer singing at the top of their voice with the mic pressed up against their lips. So it could be normal that the output seems low when speaking into it.

I don't know for sure but this could be that you are still getting used to higher quality gear and you will need to turn your monitors up. If this results in unacceptable levels of noise there is something wrong. If the signal to noise ratio is OK i.e. you can hear what you've recorded without it being shrouded in noise then welcome to the world of higher quality gear.
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by blockflute »

merlyn wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:13 pm That's not good, is it? Going over 0dB. So you're comparing consumer gear overloading with higher quality gear that doesn't overload. Not overloading is preferable.
...

If the signal to noise ratio is OK i.e. you can hear what you've recorded without it being shrouded in noise then welcome to the world of higher quality gear.
Thanks for the feedback. And, you are absolutely right, going over 0dB isn't good and I am comparing *very* cheap stuff with something much better. I accept that maybe this is a question of being in the wonderful world of better equipment, which is why I haven't just sent the AI box back on the basis that it doesn't work - maybe it does. However, it still seems to me to be a bit strange that it's not even possible to to get somewhere close to 0db (or indeed even beyond) with gain on max. A reply to my original query said that a (different) Behringer AI worked with a guitar at about 25% gain. Ok, I don't have much experience, but I have never used any audio equipment before where you have to have the gain on absolute max just to get something to work.

I'm not using it for voice recording but for flute. A review of the Shure mic I bought specifically said how good it was for recording the reviewer's flute. I can't play with the microphone pressed up against the flute, and it's very quiet from about 30cm which seems a comfortable distance.

I'm flummoxed!
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by merlyn »

blockflute wrote: However, it still seems to me to be a bit strange that it's not even possible to to get somewhere close to 0db (or indeed even beyond) with gain on max.
That would be a good thing to me. You don't want to be anywhere near 0dBFS. 0dBFS = system malfunction. 0dFS = FFS turn it down :)

In the old days of analogue recording you could bang the needles off the side of the meter because analogue gear had headroom. 0dB wasn't really the end of the road -- there was a bit in reserve. Not so with digital gear. 0dBFS is the end of the road.

The UMC22 is 24 bit so a good nominal level is -18dBFS. What does nominal mean? Somewhere around -18dBFS, in the -18 dBFS ballpark. So you're not doing too bad with -20dBFS. You have headroom. You can tell your friends you're a proper sound engineer now and leave 20dB of headroom.

The test is then if you push the fader up in your DAW is there a huge amount of noise?

It could be worth looking at alsamixer

Code: Select all

$ alsamixer
to see what the controls are at.
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by blockflute »

Thank you so much for the additional information - I realise this is pretty basic stuff and the help is much appreciated.

Playing a comfortable distance from the mic with the gain on the AI turned up to max is giving me probably a nominal -20dB, maybe even the -18 you suggest. If I push the fader all the way up (from its default of 0) it makes no difference to the noise. I'm slightly surprised still that I have to have the AI gain at max, but if that works, it doesn't really matter. It's not like the AI cost a lot of money.

I checked alsamixer btw and it just says "This sound device does not have any capture controls." Again, that doesn't really matter if everything is where it needs to be.

Right, I'm off to tell all my friends that I'm a proper sound engineer who leaves 20dB of headroom :)

Thanks again: you have set my mind at rest that everything is working as it should.
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by bluzee »

Dynamic mic @ 30cm on a flute I would think you will need the gain pretty much at maximum. These are a modest preamp with somewhere between 50-55db gain.

As long as the green signal light is blinking you should be OK. If you ever see the red clip light blink then you need to turn down the gain.
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by blockflute »

The green light does blink, and I've never triggered the red light (other than by thumping on the mic to make sure it works) so I'm obviously in the right zone. Thank you - as I said above, I am totally ignorant about this and just couldn't tell if this was normal or the AI was faulty. It's good to know that stuff is working and I can crack on with the million-and-one other things I have to learn!
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by CrocoDuck »

blockflute wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:42 am AI does make a difference, but whereas I would expect it to go from silent to overloaded, it goes from silent to barely audible.
Barely audible to the point you struggle to make any use of it? If so, that doesn't quite sound right to me. I have an UMC202HD and, whilst I don't have mics with me to double check things, I don't remember the level being so low with the mics I tried in the past.
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by merlyn »

I was using Ardour and realised that my 0dBFS advice could lead to confusion about the internal bus in Ardour.

Internally Ardour uses a 32 bit float bus so it is possible to go over 0dBFS internally. In other words you don't have to worry too much about the level of tracks inside Ardour.

The Master bus connects to the hardware so you can't go over 0dBFS on the Master bus. This might help :

AI input (24 bit integer) > Ardour (32 bit float) > AI output (24 bit integer)

So when recording the signal cannot go over 0dBFS. If anyone found that confusing let me know and I'll try to explain it again.
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by Musicteacher »

I have a Behringe UMC 18-20, the mic level is no problem.

But: The Shure is a dynamic mic, those are best at low disctance. Also, you can (and should) turn off phantom power.

From your name I guess that you are playing recorder (soprano? ). Place the mic like you are singing (mouth at mic), now add some 10 - 20 cm distance.

Then play.

For recording recorder I'd have taken a condenser mic, those function much better when placed a bit further away.

Regards,
Andreas
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Re: Behringer AI so quiet it's barely audible

Post by blockflute »

First, thanks to everyone who has replied. This forum has been brilliant. I remember years ago asking something on a Solaris news group about a sound issue on what was then an elderly Sun machine and the first reply said that Solaris was for work not messing about and I shouldn't want to get the sound going!

CrocoDuck: to be honest, this is partly my mistake as I didn't really understand how things should be. The level did seem very low - my first attempt involved trying to play along with a guitar accompaniment my brother recorded. His track was drowning me out. That was before hooking up the Behringer box, and I (naively as it turns out) thought that it would boost my input to about the same level. With gain at about 50% I was barely making an impression, and even at 100% it wasn't overwhelming. Er - problem solved by turning down the level on the guitar! Partly this is just one of those linux facts of life, I think: some hardware happens to work easily, some does not. Because my usb mic did not (at least not straightforwardly) I had to buy something else, and then something else, plus temporarily doing this on laptop, so it was hard to know what was working properly and what wasn't. Everything seems to be working fine now.

Merlyn: many thanks for your help - I really had no idea what this ought to look like before reading your post (and it's hard to tell what is wrong if you don't know what is right).

Musicteacher: well spotted - I am indeed playing recorder (tenor in fact). Since first post, I have acquired a decent mic stand so I have been able to get a decent placement of the mic wrt the recorder. Maybe a condenser mic would have been better. It's always tricky doing these things piecemeal and without any chance to try things out (I live in a country area with no access whatsoever to a shop that might sell any of this stuff) so I got the dynamic mic because the balance of advice seemed to point in that direction. Anyway, it works, and I'm not changing it now!

Once again, thanks to all, I am most grateful for all the help.
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