Default pan

MusE is a MIDI/Audio sequencer with recording and editing capabilities, aiming to be a complete multitrack virtual studio for Linux. http://muse-sequencer.org/

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alex stone
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Default pan

Postby alex stone » Wed May 15, 2019 2:00 pm

The default pan in Muse seems to be basic left and right with no controls for width.

I've tried using a stereo width plugin to enhance my string sections, but to no avail.

Is there a Muse user out there who's had any success with widening the stereo image after placing the 'centre' of the image in the left/right axis?

Alex.

merlyn
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Re: Default pan

Postby merlyn » Wed May 15, 2019 2:12 pm

I don't have MusE specific experience but I wonder what you mean by 'width'. It seems you are talking about a stereo track, so they don't use 'pan' they use 'balance'.

By 'width' do you mean reversing the phase of one side so the mono component is knocked out?

alex stone
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Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:39 am

Re: Default pan

Postby alex stone » Wed May 15, 2019 3:20 pm

Yes i should have been clearer. In the Muse pan, one side of the balance is reduced in volume to emulate left or right. This has the effect of narrowing the source, so in orchestral sample terms, an entire section of 1st violins becomes a mono instrument.

What i'm looking to do is maintain both sides of the balance, reduce the total width a little, then "turn" that slightly narrowed image towards left or right. A true stereo pan. So the total image doesn't reach to complete left and right, but a percentage of both, then steer that image a little left or right. That maintains the width of a section of players, seated as a 'block' where i tell them to.


Alex.

EDIT: I've just added a Feature Request issue for this in the Muse github repo.

merlyn
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Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Default pan

Postby merlyn » Wed May 15, 2019 3:51 pm

I see. You have a clear idea of what you want. Well if I can go out on a limb here I would say it's beyond the limits of what two tracks can do.

If a signal is stereo there is energy in the left and right channels. It's an illusion, and our brains create the phantom image.

In terms of routing everything that can be done can be done by bringing L and R onto two mono tracks 1 and 2. If you pan 1 hard left and 2 hard right that's 100% stereo width. This can now be moved in the stereo image by bringing the levels of 1 and 2 up and down, like balance does. Stereo information is being lost though.

With the pan of 1 at 9 o'clock and the pan of 2 at 3 o'clock that's 50% stereo width and that image can similarly be moved.

So to have the violins sitting on the left and still be stereo the stereo component would have to come from reverb.

alex stone
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Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:39 am

Re: Default pan

Postby alex stone » Wed May 15, 2019 3:56 pm

merlyn wrote:I see. You have a clear idea of what you want. Well if I can go out on a limb here I would say it's beyond the limits of what two tracks can do.

If a signal is stereo there is energy in the left and right channels. It's an illusion, and our brains create the phantom image.

In terms of routing everything that can be done can be done by bringing L and R onto two mono tracks 1 and 2. If you pan 1 hard left and 2 hard right that's 100% stereo width. This can now be moved in the stereo image by bringing the levels of 1 and 2 up and down, like balance does. Stereo information is being lost though.

With the pan of 1 at 9 o'clock and the pan of 2 at 3 o'clock that's 50% stereo width and that image can similarly be moved.

So to have the violins sitting on the left and still be stereo the stereo component would have to come from reverb.



Yep, i've had to manipulate reverb before to try and emulate this.

My width would be more 1 at half past ten, and 2 at half past one, then rotate that width left a little for the 1st violins. That's wide enough, going on past experience to emulate a fuller section.

I may have to use two tracks, which i've also done in the past to widen and thicken the string sections.

Tim E. Real
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Posts: 276
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:36 am

Re: Default pan

Postby Tim E. Real » Wed May 15, 2019 4:55 pm

The default pan in Muse seems to be basic left and right with no controls for width.
I've tried using a stereo width plugin to enhance my string sections, but to no avail.


Correct, there's no width control. That is left up to a plugin if desired.
Not sure why they didn't work for you. I've used them.
For example the ladspa Tap Reverberator works for me but is not specifically an 'imager'.
Other plugins have worked for me. The Invada mixer strip was excellent.

One possible source of poor performance is the consideration of plugin terminals vs. track channels.
The document README.effects-rack explains the relationship between the number of effects rack plugin ins/outs and the number of track channels.

Code: Select all

Example: Consider a stereo Audio Input track with these effect rack
 LADSPA plugins:
 
    comb_splitter      Comb Splitter      by Steve Harris, and
    tap_stereo_echo    Tap Stereo Echo    by Tom Szilagyi

The Comb Splitter has one audio input and two audio outputs.
The Stereo Echo has two audio inputs and two audio outputs.
 
The stereo Audio Input track will therefore ignore its second
 input route connection. It will process the left input only,
 separating it into stereo with the Comb Splitter, passing the 
 split stereo signal into the Stereo Echo, finally producing
 stereo output available at the Audio Input track's output routes.     

In this case, be sure to use an imager plugin which has true stereo input and output, to fit the two channels of the track.

alex stone
Established Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:39 am

Re: Default pan

Postby alex stone » Wed May 15, 2019 5:14 pm

Tim E. Real wrote:
The default pan in Muse seems to be basic left and right with no controls for width.
I've tried using a stereo width plugin to enhance my string sections, but to no avail.


Correct, there's no width control. That is left up to a plugin if desired.
Not sure why they didn't work for you. I've used them.
For example the ladspa Tap Reverberator works for me but is not specifically an 'imager'.
Other plugins have worked for me. The Invada mixer strip was excellent.

One possible source of poor performance is the consideration of plugin terminals vs. track channels.
The document README.effects-rack explains the relationship between the number of effects rack plugin ins/outs and the number of track channels.

Code: Select all

Example: Consider a stereo Audio Input track with these effect rack
 LADSPA plugins:
 
    comb_splitter      Comb Splitter      by Steve Harris, and
    tap_stereo_echo    Tap Stereo Echo    by Tom Szilagyi

The Comb Splitter has one audio input and two audio outputs.
The Stereo Echo has two audio inputs and two audio outputs.
 
The stereo Audio Input track will therefore ignore its second
 input route connection. It will process the left input only,
 separating it into stereo with the Comb Splitter, passing the 
 split stereo signal into the Stereo Echo, finally producing
 stereo output available at the Audio Input track's output routes.     

In this case, be sure to use an imager plugin which has true stereo input and output, to fit the two channels of the track.




Good tip. I just tried the MDA image lv2 plugin, and it worked. I have "width" to my string sections again, and they're all sitting where they're supposed to. The stereo pan plugin didn't. I don't have the invada plug installed, so i'll try that in the future.

Thanks to both of you for the help.

The Punisher.

Tim E. Real
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Posts: 276
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:36 am

Re: Default pan

Postby Tim E. Real » Wed May 15, 2019 6:14 pm

I suppose the terms 'imager', 'pan', 'combiner', 'separator', 'blend', are sort of grey area with some overlap.

I guess I was mostly referring to artificial imager plugins (delays etc.), but your recent issue request
illustrates that we could at least build in a basic stereo-to-mono 'combiner' (blend) function without the use of a plugin.
So that, as you requested, for example the separation/combination is kept while pan is rotated.

merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Default pan

Postby merlyn » Thu May 16, 2019 12:08 pm

Something you might want to try is using M and S.

M = L + R

S = L - R

So the S signal is the difference between L and R in other words the bit that makes the signal stereo.


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