New Laptop Advice April 2022

Talk about your MIDI interfaces, microphones, keyboards...

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foodforester1
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by foodforester1 »

Thank you all for your advice.

I have to admit to looking seriously at the ASUS TUF Gaming Laptop series, but your answer does raise another question.

Is the AMD processor really that much better at music production than the Intel equivalent?

I really don't want to let our poor internet access get in the way of the performance of the machine.

I intend using only Linux applications and plugins and no foreign plugins etc..

Music production software on my short-list at present is:-
Qtractor as the DAW
Outboarding compatible instruments to LMMS and Carla
Instruments (other than those in LMMS) - already quite sufficient to master without adding the vast array of foreign plugins :) :-
Surge and Surge XT
Odin II
Helm
Qsynth for Soundfonts
??? SFZ ??? other than plugging them into Carla
Plugins only come from the repositories available to AV_Linux_MX-21
VST2/3
LV2
LADSPA
DSSI

Given that to be the case, am I correct in surmising that I should rather look at the higher speed, more powerful CPU and greater RAM capacity, than to throw any money at a GPU, especially given the extra power draw of the GPU?

Once again, any advice would be gratefully accepted.

And again a big thank you to all for the advice. I really appreciate it.

Thanking you in anticipation.
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by Kott »

Why do you think that AMD CPU requires internet?
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by foodforester1 »

Why do you think that AMD CPU requires internet?
That is based on the experience of installing Debian 9 on this AMD based Acer Aspire 3 when I bought it.

I have been running Debian since version 4, always on Intel laptops, and when this AMD came along the requirement for fiddling and adding internet based resources seemed to rocket.

I accept that this was two major versions ago, but while I have Debian 11 on a different partition with very little fiddling, I am going to be running AV/MX Linux, which may not require as much fiddling as Debian 9 did. So far AV Linux has required little fiddling in those areas, but I didn't want to take chances of this level of frustration creeping in again.

However, that said, if there are definite advantages to AMD processors in music production, I am open to suggestions.
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by Kott »

foodforester1 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:24 am
Why do you think that AMD CPU requires internet?
That is based on the experience of installing Debian 9 on this AMD based Acer Aspire 3 when I bought it.

I have been running Debian since version 4, always on Intel laptops, and when this AMD came along the requirement for fiddling and adding internet based resources seemed to rocket.
I see nothing extra for AMD on my system, just vendor's microcode package. Not sure if Debian has any other packages.
Perhaps it was a GPU driver?
foodforester1 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:24 am However, that said, if there are definite advantages to AMD processors in music production, I am open to suggestions.
Performance/Price ratio.
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by Linuxmusician01 »

foodforester1 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:51 am Is the AMD processor really that much better at music production than the Intel equivalent?
Nobody knows where you heard that untrue statement/rumor. You mentioned no source. Let it go.
foodforester1 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:51 am
I really don't want to let our poor internet access get in the way of the performance of the machine.
Nobody here or on the internet has ever confirmed your suspicion that an AMD processor "needs the internet". Or do you mean AMD graphics cards/GPU's? Why do you think that and what do you even mean by that? Do you mean tat Linux distro's want to install a newer kernel more often if you have an AMD processor (or AMD graphics)? Realize that a computer cannot access the internet without a CPU. So a CPU cannot "need" a working internet connection. Period.
foodforester1 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:51 am I intend using only Linux applications and plugins and no foreign plugins etc..

Music production software on my short-list at present is:-
Qtractor as the DAW
Outboarding compatible instruments to LMMS and Carla
Instruments (other than those in LMMS) - already quite sufficient to master without adding the vast array of foreign plugins :) :-

Surge and Surge XT
Odin II
Helm
Qsynth for Soundfonts
??? SFZ ??? other than plugging them into Carla

Plugins only come from the repositories available to AV_Linux_MX-21:
VST2/3
LV2
LADSPA
DSSI

Given that to be the case, am I correct in surmising that I should rather look at the higher speed, more powerful CPU and greater RAM capacity, than to throw any money at a GPU, especially given the extra power draw of the GPU?
Wait a minute: you mean the Odin 2 Synthesizer plugin, not the Odin II Guitar plugin (costs $160). Given your short list you could even do that w/ a second hand laptop from the middle ages (I know I do).

And let go the idea that you need some sort of fancy GPU for any music production. We've told you a few times now. Some might say that Intel processors (CPU) and graphics chips (GPU) are better supported in Linux out of the box. I can't confirm or deny that.


P.S. Thanks for the tip on the Surge and Odin Linux VST synthesizers! :)
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by foodforester1 »

My humble apology for any offense caused by my uninformed / misinformed PC hardware knowledge. None was intended. I was last directly involved in PC hardware issues when Maths Co-Processors were a DIL Chip that could be optionally inserted on the motherboard. Since then I have been in network support, from prior to Ethernet becoming the standard (G-Net & ArcNet) through to SNMP Network Management on switches and routers, terminating nearly 20 years ago when I took early retirement to go farming. So please excuse the stupid questions. I am now a simple farmer trying to get his 70 year old head around PC hardware efficiencies and deficiencies in an area of computing I know little about.

The reason I thought that GPU was a good thing to have, was that my son bought a Dell laptop about 20 years ago with a GPU included, but he was running Windows with first Fruityloops and then Abelton, probably with lots of VST's???
I would like to recommend to look towards the ASUS TUF Gaming Laptop series with AMD Ryzen on board.
Have such with Ryzen 4800H and 16 GB RAM, very satisfied with the price/configuration relation.
Based on the above comment I assumed (probably incorrectly) that the AMD processor was better at music production. Again I have to ask that you excuse my lack of knowledge. Also in the way distant past, between 20 and 25 years ago, a colleague in the same office mentioned that he considered AMD processors to be better at "multimedia" work than Intel, but he was producing videos with audio, and not necessarily producing music.

As to the Odin that I am looking at, I am talking about the FOSS Odin synth and not the costly guitar plugin.
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by Linuxmusician01 »

@foodforester1: I wouldn't worry about the specs of your new computer. In my experience the hardest part is actually finding a laptop that supports Linux in every way. Well, an affordable laptop that is. A cheap desktop PC (for, say $400) will simply work 90% to 99% of the time. And any new computer is super-fast if you ask me. Well, except for a Chromebook maybe, but given its price I don't mind.

If I had to get me a new laptop today (as of 2022) I'd still buy an Intel based Chromebook (for, say, 250 Euro) and install Linux with Crouton. Why? Because a reasonably up to date distro (Ubuntu 20.04 with the LXDE desktop) is still sort of possible, they say... Only downside to Crouton: no easy file sharing with Windows users/networks because the Samba kernel module ain't in the ChromeOS kernel (well, not yet AFAIK).

However, if you desperately want to update your Linux distro every 2 years or so (and with PipeWire on it's way you might just want to be able to do that for Music production) Crouton might not be the best option. Choose wisely. ;)
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by RockMaster »

Linuxmusician01 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:23 pm @foodforester1: I wouldn't worry about the specs of your new computer. In my experience the hardest part is actually finding a laptop that supports Linux in every way. Well, an affordable laptop that is.
That's just it. If you want a Linux compatible laptop you need to scrape together more cash and see what's on offer from Dell or alternatively Lenovo. The problem with the cheapest laptops not supporting Linux is because they are using the very cheapest components where manufacturers will never ever bother with Linux drivers.

Here's my advice - lurk on Dell's outlet and get yourself a bargain for half the price: https://outlet.euro.dell.com/Online/Inv ... id=5667687
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by bluzee »

You have not caused any offense. I think we were just looking for some clarity as to some of your perceptions and expectations.

Regarding AMD cpu verses Intel cpu I know of no particular reason why one should perform particularly better than the other. There may be some specific cases where one has a slight advantage over the other. Research any processor options you find and compare price and power consumption for processors with equal processing power. AMD may have an advantage in both of these currently but that changes back and forth. Either way I don't think you'll be unhappy with these new cpus.

Regarding advantages to having a dedicated GPU, as for audio processing I know of none. A dedicated GPU may make your desktop response "snappier" with some applications. If it's worth the extra cost I can't say. My opinion is I would invest in a more powerful CPU instead. Going a laptop route you have to make this decision now unfortunately. With a desktop you can always add one in later. Regardless, I would only recommend AMD for dedicated graphics and not Nvidia.

If you wish Intel graphics then an Intel cpu is obviously your only choice.
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

I notice you don't mention an audio interface. I assume you intend to use your motherboard audio. Todays chipsets are decent enough to use for monitoring, but you'll either need an audio amp with Aux or Line In jacks (that bypass the pre-amp), or a good pair of low impedance (below 50 ohms or so) headphones. You definitely don't want to listen to music on speakers built into a laptop or computer monitor. You need low impedance headphones because most computer audio chips don't have the power to drive headphones with high impedance. (ie, Plug a 600 ohm headphones into your computer's speaker out, and you'll barely hear anything). I use the Beyer Dynamic DT700 Pro (32 ohm) headphones with my motherboard audio, and they sound quite nice.

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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by foodforester1 »

Thank you for the advice.

I have to admit to being somewhat envious of those of you living out there in the Free World, where you CAN buy computers with Linux pre-loaded. Here, in the penal colony that is Australia, doing a search for Linux on Dell's web site returns a whole lot of peripherals (disks, keyboards and mice) and NO computers. Lenovo has one laptop with Ubuntu and that starts (8GB RAM) at about $500 to $700 more than I can afford right now. I was absolutely AMAZED that I even found that one, as I have tried to buy Linux based laptops for the last 15 years, unsuccessfully. Until I did this search on Lenovo's site, the choice of OS with a new PC has ALWAYS been Windows or Windows or pay double the price for an Apple Mac.

The laptops I have been using for Debian for the last 15 years have been my son's nearly 20 year old Dell Studio XPS (my wife's computer) and a string of various low-end Acers and Asus laptops/netbooks, so I am reasonably used to the 'fiddle' required to get them running properly.

What I do now, is to go to the shop with a Live bootable USB drive and ask to check if the laptop in question will boot and run Linux from the Live USB. If the laptop complies and boots and runs the Live USB, I will buy it, as that means that I will be able to install the OS. Using Debian it was reasonably easy, as I would always download the 'nonfree' Live ISO image to ensure that I got all the relevant firmware. Once again, that is why I lean towards Intel, as it appears from my experience with this AMD based Aspire 3 that AMD requires firmware not necessarily included in all distros.

I made a mistake buying this Acer Aspire 3 with AMD on board, hoping that it would outperform the old Intel it was replacing. Big Mistake!

This is why I have been so cautious this time, as I cannot afford to make another costly mistake.

Thank you all again for the advice. I will put any money towards the higher powered CPU and RAM and forget about any GPU, as that is not relevant in my case.

This issue can now be closed, as I now have all the answers I need to make my buying decision.
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by sunrat »

Mate, I am happy to live in Australia and have never had problems buying computers for Linux. Well, building them usually except for a ThinkPad Yoga 11e I got secondhand which runs Debian nicely. For Debian and Linux in general, do not get the latest just released hardware. 12th Gen Intel will be tricky but 11th Gen should be fine. I'm not up with AMD stuff.
Compared with many other countries, Australia has many advantages. Many disadvantages too like the added cost of many goods from overseas because of freight. And our backward internet thanks to government policy to scrap FTTP optical back in 2013.
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by Linuxmusician01 »

foodforester1 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:55 pm [...]

What I do now, is to go to the shop with a Live bootable USB drive and ask to check if the laptop in question will boot and run Linux from the Live USB. If the laptop complies and boots and runs the Live USB, I will buy it,[...]
Make sure to test every piece of hardware in the laptop. Especially WiFi which can be a pain because many of those chips are known to only work with proprietary (Windows) drivers. Bluetooth: who cares ;)
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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by tavasti »

In case of wlan not working, getting usb wlan dongle does not cost much.

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Re: New Laptop Advice April 2022

Post by foodforester1 »

Regarding Australia, I have lived happily here for over quarter of a century, but having come here from a totalitarian environment, it didn't take me long to recognize all the signs. As to the penal colony bit, I am quoting a Queensland barrister with a similar background (born a totalitarian environment and was fortunate enough to be educated here) when he stated on video "Australia was founded as a penal colony, and nothing has changed in the last 200 years".

Regarding the advice about wlan, both my wife nd I are very Electro Hypersensitive, so we ONLY use cabled devices PC's, keyboards, mouse and phone, so I would be VERY happy if the wlan doesn't work under Linux, as it is then one less thing that I have to disable - along with bluetooth. We are unable to even hold a mobile phone for more than 3 minutes without suffering severe and lasting pain in the hand - bones feel nuked (unsurprisingly), since that is what is happening.

I won't get into a discussion on the harm caused by electromagnetic radiation here, as it is very much off-topic, along with many other 'hidden' Truths. Suffice to say, the Truth is out there as long as you DON"T use goog as your search engine. To quote a meme I found some time back:-
HOW CAN YOU TELL THE TRUTH IS BEING TOLD
Facebook blocks it
Twitter bans it
Google hides it
Youtube deletes it
Government censors it,
and the media never mentions it

The Truth is out there, but very difficult to find now, since when it sets you Free, it will also make you Mad!
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