Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

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Ben Tyson
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by Ben Tyson »

geoffrey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:45 pm Hi @Ben Tyson, thanks for testing!
My absolute pleasure, very glad to be whatever help I can be with the excellent work you're doing! :D

Also, thanks for the pointers, JamesPeters!

So I've only gotten to to doing a little bit of playing around with buffer sizes and switching between saved mixer states so far, but all seems to be working fine. I'm hoping to find a moment to do some more specific testing of i/o labelling and such within the next week or so.

Regarding the blocksize stuff, I can get 32 samples and 4 periods without xruns for audio playback and relatively minimal projects. I do need 128 & 2 for the heavier project I tested with, but it seems like that's to be expected. I did notice that 64 & 4 produced more xruns than 128 & 2; seems like that's probably not super relevant but I thought it was weird/interesting if nothing else. If anyone happens to know why that is, I'm curious.

All the switches for line/pad, air and phantom power appear to work (the corresponding lights on the interface turn on and off) through qasmixer and by loading saved mixer states with alsactl restore.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by geoffrey »

Hi @wolftune!

Thanks so much for your testing. You found a couple of bugs which I have prepared fixes for and have uploaded to https://github.com/geoffreybennett/scar ... rlett-gen3 with the tag v5.12.13s1 (precompiled packages coming soon too...)
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am Some feedback on testing (with 3rd gen 18i8 and the .deb kernel release files on KDE Neon):

Line 01 Mute (and 02 through 08 also) is confusing label because enabling them is muted, and **muting** the mutes is how to turn the output on. Would be much better to label them "enable" or "active" instead of "mute".
I don't understand what you mean by "muting the mutes". Turning the mute on turns the output off and turning the mute off turns the output back on. Every mute button I've ever seen works like that, and certainly on the 18i8 Gen 2, 18i20 Gen 2, and 18i20 Gen 3 models which have physical mute buttons, mute on = muted.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am It would also help to call them "Line 01 out" and not just "Line 01" because that would make it that much more obvious that this is a playback setting.
The controls are actually called "Line 01 (Monitor L) Playback Volume" and "Line 01 Mute Playback Switch" etc. but alsamixer removes the words "Playback Volume" and "Playback Switch" and puts volume/switch controls on the Playback page called "Line 01 (Monitor L)" and "Line 01 Mute". Have a look at the output of

Code: Select all

amixer controls -cUSB | grep "Line 01"
to confirm.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am I cannot "mute" (turn off) the "Line # Mute" settings *unless* I turn the control to SW instead of HW. But with the SW settings, only the headphone knobs work, the large Monitor knob does nothing.
When the control is set to "HW" you need to use the master Mute control. "SW" means that the per-output software controls for volume and mute are enabled and the Monitor knob is disabled. "HW" is the opposite: Monitor knob (plus the Dim and Mute controls you mention later) enabled, per-output software controls disabled.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am This means there's no way to have the Monitor knob *active* and *also* hear anything from outputs 01-04. In other words, no way to actually use that knob at all.
I think you've got the master mute enabled. Disable that and then you can have the Monitor knob active and hear things from outputs 01-04. I think you turned Speaker Switching off at some point. When you do that, the interface activates the master mute.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am It would be really ideal if the LR pairs of outputs (1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8) were recognized as a stereo set that would move together.
Yes, that would be nice. Unfortunately that needs a better mixer than AlsaMixer or QasMixer.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am Since alsamixer can still separate them when recognized that way, this would be an improvement all around. Maybe the output mute controls would be good that way too, not sure if that's as feasible or practical either implementation or interface.
I did originally consider having them all as stereo controls, but as the outputs can be used independently I thought it better to have them as mono controls. I think the mixer user interface should let you select mono/stereo for each pair of inputs.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am PAD control is missing for Line in 3 and 4.
Fixed in next release :).
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am While most controls are reflected in both AlsaMixer and QasMixer if they are changed in either one, Phantom Power Persistence doesn't change in the other when changed in one. Perhaps that means it isn't actually working? I haven't figured out how to verify that yet.
Oops! Also fixed in next release. It does actually work, just the notification to other mixer programs wasn't happening. To verify it working, when you turn off/on the interface the phantom power state will be retained if phantom power persistence is enabled. If phantom power persistence is disabled then the interface will always power up with phantom power disabled.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am I did find another case where AlsaMixer and QasMixer don't update each other: the Line output "mute" settings (the ones I said above should be renamed "enabled"). They both do succeed at the changes, but changing one does not reflect the change in the other mixer.
Yes, same cause. Fixed in next release.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am There are two other system-wide looking things called "Dim" and "Mute" for Playback. What are those? I can't tell what they do.
For outputs that have the Volume Control set to HW, enabling Dim will reduce the volume by ~18dB and enabling Mute will silence them. The per-output Mute controls that are disabled will reflect the master Mute control.

Two things that might trip you up:
  • QasMixer doesn't seem to update the Line Mute controls when the master Mute control is changed. I think this is a bug in QasMixer because AlsaMixer works correctly.
  • When you switch Speaker Switching to Off, the interface sets the master Mute control on ("for safety" says the 18i8 manual).
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:12 am Last important detail: I'm unable to use less than 128 for buffer setting, it has lots of xruns with 64 or 32 (though this worked with gen1 and gen2 devices I've used in the past). I did turn off USB_AUTOSUSPEND in tlpui and hit "save" (I don't know if that's enough, but it wasn't needed before with the other devices), and I am using performance for cpufreq governor.

Also, jack_bufsize doesn't work at all no matter how I set it. Incidentally, "switch master" in Cadence *does* work.
Sorry, I have no idea about these things. The mixer driver is pretty much unrelated to the USB latency/performance on the audio side, and I'm only an expert on one of those! :D

Thanks again for spotting those issues!

Regards,
Geoffrey.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by wolftune »

geoffrey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:15 pm I don't understand what you mean by "muting the mutes". Turning the mute on turns the output off and turning the mute off turns the output back on. Every mute button I've ever seen works like that, and certainly on the 18i8 Gen 2, 18i20 Gen 2, and 18i20 Gen 3 models which have physical mute buttons, mute on = muted.
Given physical switches, I see the dilemma. The 18i8 has no physical mute buttons. And in alsamixer, the interface shows a colored 00 as "on" and MM as "off", so MM which means "mute" (in stereo) in other contexts (like for the laptop built-in hardware) is the indication that mute is *off* and thus MM here means *not* muted, which is backwards.
The controls are actually called "Line 01 (Monitor L) Playback Volume" and "Line 01 Mute Playback Switch" etc.[/code] to confirm.
I see, indeed.
When the control is set to "HW" you need to use the master Mute control.
Got it! "Mute" and "Dim" are master controls that work only with HW settings.

So, this should be documented somehow, and also this really should be set as the default in the driver. Mute should be off (Dim should be on). Outputs 1-4 should be set to HW. Outputs 5-8 should be set to SW and have their individual mutes *off*. The kernel ought to set these as the default state from which people can deviate. That way, all outputs will work, all hardware knobs will work from the start.
You turned Speaker Switching off at some point. When you do that, the interface activates the master mute.
Yes indeed. This too would be ideal to be clearly documented, it will confuse people. So, if I get it right "Speaker Switching" set to off is the only way to have outputs 1-4 all at the same time while the hardware knob works. The other way would be to use SW control.
I did originally consider having them all as stereo controls, but as the outputs can be used independently I thought it better to have them as mono controls. I think the mixer user interface should let you select mono/stereo for each pair of inputs.
For an eventual optimized UI, I agree about the selection. Maybe someone can even add this sort of thing to alsamixer and/or qasmixer. But given the likelihood of using the outputs in stereo, I would still consider going ahead with making them stereo now and then people who want to use them as independent mono outputs have to do the workaround to control each side. But I see the trade-off, no perfect answer.
Sorry, I have no idea about [jack_bufsize and buffer issues] things. The mixer driver is pretty much unrelated to the USB latency/performance on the audio side, and I'm only an expert on one of those! :D
Any pointers on who / how / when anything regarding reporting these issues to someone who can figure them out?
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by geoffrey »

Hi Aaron,
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:48 pm
geoffrey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:15 pm I don't understand what you mean by "muting the mutes". Turning the mute on turns the output off and turning the mute off turns the output back on. Every mute button I've ever seen works like that, and certainly on the 18i8 Gen 2, 18i20 Gen 2, and 18i20 Gen 3 models which have physical mute buttons, mute on = muted.
Given physical switches, I see the dilemma. The 18i8 has no physical mute buttons. And in alsamixer, the interface shows a colored 00 as "on" and MM as "off", so MM which means "mute" (in stereo) in other contexts (like for the laptop built-in hardware) is the indication that mute is *off* and thus MM here means *not* muted, which is backwards.
Oh my goodness, I've figured out what you're talking about, and it's hilarious. In AlsaMixer, "MM" doesn't mean "mute"! It means "Off", and "OO" means "On" which makes sense for an "enable" control but labelling it MM/OO is (to say the least) "unintuitive" when it's a mute control. The laptop controls are enable controls, so Enable Off (MM) = No Audio. The Scarlett controls are mute controls, so Mute Off (MM) = Yes Audio.

And by hilarious, I mean it's one of those you gotta laugh otherwise you'd cry sort of things. AlsaMixer is really such a terrible interface for this. QasMixer at least gets this bit right.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:48 pm
geoffrey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:15 pm When the control is set to "HW" you need to use the master Mute control.
Got it! "Mute" and "Dim" are master controls that work only with HW settings.

So, this should be documented somehow,
Please see my notes here: https://gist.github.com/geoffreybennett ... 13cc719645 plus the documentation from Focusrite. Although the best documentation would be a GUI mixer interface tailored for this driver.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:48 pm and also this really should be set as the default in the driver. Mute should be off (Dim should be on). Outputs 1-4 should be set to HW. Outputs 5-8 should be set to SW and have their individual mutes *off*. The kernel ought to set these as the default state from which people can deviate. That way, all outputs will work, all hardware knobs will work from the start.
The driver loads the settings from the interface. Having defaults instead would make this awful interface even worse in the cases where someone wanted a non-default configuration (which is really common). You got caught out by the horrendous AlsaMixer interface after turning speaker switching on then off, the master mute control being nowhere near, and the 18i8 having no mute indicator/button on the hardware.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:48 pm
geoffrey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:15 pm You turned Speaker Switching off at some point. When you do that, the interface activates the master mute.
Yes indeed. This too would be ideal to be clearly documented, it will confuse people.
It is "clearly documented" in the Focusrite 18i8 3rd Gen User Guide, page 19, bottom paragraph (sarcasm directed towards Focusrite). A mute LED/button on the hardware would have made all the difference for you. Also documented in my notes linked above. Don't feel bad, this all took me many hours/days/months to figure out. Again, the main problem here is alsamixer & there being no custom GUI yet.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:48 pm So, if I get it right "Speaker Switching" set to off is the only way to have outputs 1-4 all at the same time while the hardware knob works. The other way would be to use SW control.
Yes and no :)
  • You can't use SW control for outputs 1-4 when Speaker Switching is enabled.
  • When Speaker Switching is enabled, outputs 1-4 are forced to HW control.
  • The point of Speaker Switching is to mute either outputs 1&2 or outputs 3&4, so yes, you must turn off Speaker Switching in order to use all 1-4 simultaneously.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:48 pm
geoffrey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:15 pm I did originally consider having them all as stereo controls, but as the outputs can be used independently I thought it better to have them as mono controls. I think the mixer user interface should let you select mono/stereo for each pair of inputs.
For an eventual optimized UI, I agree about the selection. Maybe someone can even add this sort of thing to alsamixer and/or qasmixer. But given the likelihood of using the outputs in stereo, I would still consider going ahead with making them stereo now and then people who want to use them as independent mono outputs have to do the workaround to control each side. But I see the trade-off, no perfect answer.
Your comments make a lot of sense for the 18i8 outputs where the outputs are really obviously in pairs, but for the 18i20 that's a bad assumption; with 10 independent analogue outputs it could be mono, stereo, LCRS, 5.1 surround, 7.1 surround or something weirder and in every case but stereo pairs that would make the interface in alsamixer even worse than it currently is.
wolftune wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:48 pm
geoffrey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:15 pm Sorry, I have no idea about [jack_bufsize and buffer issues] things. The mixer driver is pretty much unrelated to the USB latency/performance on the audio side, and I'm only an expert on one of those! :D
Any pointers on who / how / when anything regarding reporting these issues to someone who can figure them out?
Sorry no, I'd suggest starting a new thread on this site about that.

Regards,
Geoffrey.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by JamesPeters »

Hi Geoffrey,

Thanks for the work you're doing with these devices!

I'm hesitant to test this since it would mean patching a kernel and I've never done that before. I don't want to mess up an otherwise working system, for what would most likely be minimal feedback that I could provide (since I only have the 3rd gen 2i2, and others are providing feedback for probably the same functionality and then some with the larger devices).

I'm using Manjaro though, so if your patches are pushed to the kernel, I'd be able to test them without any hassle soon enough (updates are quick in Manjaro, and swapping kernels is easy).
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by wolftune »

geoffrey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:18 pm Oh my goodness, I've figured out what you're talking about, and it's hilarious. In AlsaMixer, "MM" doesn't mean "mute"! It means "Off", and "OO" means "On" which makes sense for an "enable" control but labelling it MM/OO is (to say the least) "unintuitive" when it's a mute control. The laptop controls are enable controls, so Enable Off (MM) = No Audio. The Scarlett controls are mute controls, so Mute Off (MM) = Yes Audio.

And by hilarious, I mean it's one of those you gotta laugh otherwise you'd cry sort of things. AlsaMixer is really such a terrible interface for this. QasMixer at least gets this bit right.
Wat‽ That's crazy! MM is "off"? M is the key to use as well, everything about it is obviously indicating "mute". But I see your point, and yes to laughing over crying, hah
Last edited by wolftune on Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by wolftune »

One other minor issue: The entry that I think should be "Clock Source" is listed as "Clock Source Clock Source"

And one question: what is "Sync Status"? (It says Locked and it refuses to change if I try)
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by geoffrey »

wolftune wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:27 am
geoffrey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:18 pm Oh my goodness, I've figured out what you're talking about, and it's hilarious. In AlsaMixer, "MM" doesn't mean "mute"! It means "Off", and "OO" means "On" which makes sense for an "enable" control but labelling it MM/OO is (to say the least) "unintuitive" when it's a mute control. The laptop controls are enable controls, so Enable Off (MM) = No Audio. The Scarlett controls are mute controls, so Mute Off (MM) = Yes Audio.

And by hilarious, I mean it's one of those you gotta laugh otherwise you'd cry sort of things. AlsaMixer is really such a terrible interface for this. QasMixer at least gets this bit right.
Wat‽ That's crazy! MM is "off"? M is the key to use as well, everything about it is obviously indicating "mute". But I see your point, and yes to laughing over crying, hah
Yes. Look in the top-left where it has "Card", "Chip", "View", "Item". When you're on a mute control then next to "Item" it will say "Line XX Mute" optionally followed by "[Off]". MM is off. Hey, it made sense when the mute controls were actually enable controls! Enable off = Muted. Unfortunately Muted off = not muted :).

And every boolean playback control is treated as a mute (enable) control. So if your Scarlett is fresh out of the box, you need to turn off the "MSD Mode" control to enable all the features. And of course that involves pressing the "M" key, because that makes 100% sense.
Last edited by geoffrey on Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by geoffrey »

wolftune wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:08 am One other minor issue: The entry that I think should be "Clock Source" is listed as "Clock Source Clock Source"
I think that's actually the one non-proprietary control that the interface has (so not handled by my driver). The interface reports the name of the control as "Clock Source", and since the description subtype is CLOCK_SELECTOR the ALSA driver helpfully appends "Clock Source" to the name:

Code: Select all

sound/usb/mixer.c:
                /* and add the proper suffix */
                if (desc->bDescriptorSubtype == UAC2_CLOCK_SELECTOR ||
                    desc->bDescriptorSubtype == UAC3_CLOCK_SELECTOR)
                        append_ctl_name(kctl, " Clock Source");
resulting in the name you see of "Clock Source Clock Source".
wolftune wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:08 am And one question: what is "Sync Status"? (It says Locked and it refuses to change if I try)
That's a read-only control confirming if the Scarlett device is locked to a valid clock source. If you have no S/PDIF or ADAT input and change the Clock Source to S/PDIF or ADAT then you will see the Sync Status change to Unlocked and you won't get any more audio. See the Clock Source section right at the end of the Focusrite Control Scarlett 3rd Gen User Guide for more information.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by geoffrey »

JamesPeters wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:50 am Hi Geoffrey,

Thanks for the work you're doing with these devices!

I'm hesitant to test this since it would mean patching a kernel and I've never done that before. I don't want to mess up an otherwise working system, for what would most likely be minimal feedback that I could provide (since I only have the 3rd gen 2i2, and others are providing feedback for probably the same functionality and then some with the larger devices).

I'm using Manjaro though, so if your patches are pushed to the kernel, I'd be able to test them without any hassle soon enough (updates are quick in Manjaro, and swapping kernels is easy).
You're welcome, and that's fair enough. Working system absolutely more important than testing! :)

Testing with every device is important though. Every device has a different selection of controls (and the Solo/2i2 have a Direct Monitor control that the larger devices don't have), and wolftune above discovered two problems in his testing that I missed; one particular to the 18i8 and one that affected every device including the 2i2. It's also important to test before the patches make it to the distros because then the problems will be affecting a whole lot more people.
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New Gen 2 & 3 mixer driver upstreamed + Release 2 test kernel

Post by geoffrey »

Hi all!

All my patches that I submitted to improve the Gen 2 support and add Gen 3 support have now been accepted upstream and are in the linux-next tree.

This means that the mixer driver should make it in to the 5.14 kernel release which will probably be early September (5.13 is about to be released, and it's usually about 2 months between releases).

Before then, if you are able to test, please do & provide feedback. Even if it works, please let me know what you tested. See https://gist.github.com/geoffreybennett ... 13cc719645 for a list of features that you can check as well as some information about the speaker switching and talkback features if you have an 18i8/18i20.

To get your head around the routing/mixing functionality available, please study the diagram near the top of the source: https://github.com/geoffreybennett/scar ... ett_gen2.c

Also, since that submission, I've fixed two problems reported by @wolftune. New code is at https://github.com/geoffreybennett/scar ... v5.12.13s1 — source, RPMs, and debs are there, as usual.

Thanks for all your help!

Regards,
Geoffrey.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by JamesPeters »

Hi Geoffrey,

I understand testing every device is important, but modifying a kernel in the way described on that page you linked is too confusing to me. The instructions gloss over many things that I don't already know; it assumes the reader has more knowledge to be doing this sort of thing. I don't like blindly following instructions that might mess up my system, not understanding what they're doing. So if I see something that seems like I should leave it alone (unless I want to spend unknown amounts of time learning about it first), I just avoid doing it.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by geoffrey »

JamesPeters wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:40 pm Hi Geoffrey,

I understand testing every device is important, but modifying a kernel in the way described on that page you linked is too confusing to me. The instructions gloss over many things that I don't already know; it assumes the reader has more knowledge to be doing this sort of thing. I don't like blindly following instructions that might mess up my system, not understanding what they're doing. So if I see something that seems like I should leave it alone (unless I want to spend unknown amounts of time learning about it first), I just avoid doing it.
Of course! That's what I was trying to convey with my comment "Working system absolutely more important than testing!"

My further comments about testing even on Solo and 2i2 devices being important were not intended for you so much as to encourage any others reading along to please get involved with testing if possible. I hope to get the driver enabled by default (i.e. no need for the device_setup=1 option) in the 5.15 kernel, and I really want to be sure that doing that won't break anyone's audio.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by FluxTape »

Just tested https://github.com/geoffreybennett/scar ... v5.12.13s1 with my 8i6 gen 3. I use Arch linux with the zen kernel and just replaced the /sound/usb folder with the one from github when compiling. I hope that is all that's needed (besides scarlett.conf of course).
The "INST" switch in alsamixer is working but "AIR", "PAD" and the 48V switches are not. They show up but can't be toggled.

For now I'm switching back to kernel 5.11.16 with sadko4u's 5.11 patch, which has been working flawlessly for me.
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Re: Focusrite Scarlett 2nd and 3rd Gen mixer driver

Post by geoffrey »

FluxTape wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:22 pm Just tested https://github.com/geoffreybennett/scar ... v5.12.13s1 with my 8i6 gen 3. I use Arch linux with the zen kernel and just replaced the /sound/usb folder with the one from github when compiling. I hope that is all that's needed (besides scarlett.conf of course).
The "INST" switch in alsamixer is working but "AIR", "PAD" and the 48V switches are not. They show up but can't be toggled.

For now I'm switching back to kernel 5.11.16 with sadko4u's 5.11 patch, which has been working flawlessly for me.
Hi FluxTape,

Thanks for trying it out! I'm guessing you were using the Up/Down arrows to try to change the Air/Pad/48V switches? Can you try again and this time press the spacebar and see if that makes it work? Up/Down arrows will change the Level switches between Line/Inst, but do nothing for the Air/Pad/48V switches. Similarly, on the Playback page, you need to press "M" to toggle the on/off controls.

Yeah, alsamixer is weird. You use Up/Down for enumerated controls (ones with a list of values), Spacebar for Capture on/off controls, and "M" for Playback on/off controls. Use the wrong key and nothing will happen.

Regards,
Geoffrey.
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