New old laptop, interface with 8-12 inputs, (saffire) firewire perhaps

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Fmajor7add9
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New old laptop, interface with 8-12 inputs, (saffire) firewire perhaps

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

I'm looking for a new laptop and another interface to record band demos and live shows.

laptop:
Coming from i5-2540M (2.60 GHz, 2 cores/4 threads, 35 W) w. 12GB RAM.
Fine for my usage but the fan is so noisy you need headphones music playing to stay sane and it limits the options for mic recordings next to it.

Sometimes borrowing a 8GB RAM i5-4200U dual-core 1.6 GHz. Runs fine, minimal fan noise.

Next laptop should be
  • refurbished with warranty at around max. 350€
  • long battery life, nice touch pad or screen not req.
  • max 1.5kg
  • preferably with USB 3 ports
  • preferably with a VT-d compatible CPU to enable PCI passthrough (aka VFIO)
  • (cheap) docking station available
Then there's a firewire req. that narrows the field, to keep an older firewire interface (with MIDI keys and knobs, Ozonic) going.

FW can be added by express card to many older laptops like ThinkPads and HP EliteBooks and are still available.
It can also be connected by Thunderbolt adapters so there might be some older MacBooks suitable for that.

Interface
We made a 6 track demo at a band rehearsal that involved 3 interfaces with 2 inputs each (Mackie mixer and Scarlett by USB with ADIO4ALL, Zoom H4 to SD card). Afterwards we looked into the compact Behringer, Line6, Tascam etc. digital mixer boxes with SD card recording and remote control by tablet/phone app.

Behringer even made their controller app for Linux also, the Zoom LiveTrak and alike are appealing if they can be used as decent MIDI controllers when not mixing.

Then I had a look at Focusrite's Saffires after these reddit comments. Some of them have a DSP engine, the controller app for that is (of course) Win/Mac only but you can set it and forget it and connect to another host or use as a standalone thru mixer.

They're dirt cheap used now, as in around 50€ or less for the lower range, around 100€ for the 24 DSP with 2 optical inputs that can carry 10 channels alongside 4 analog inputs.

The Behringer X Air XR18 is 424€ new and the SD card/USB disk recorder is a killer feature compared to the Saffires for some gigs.

To match their channel count with a Saffire I'd need a mixer with adat / spdif output to record larger bands so that would exclude some options where they don't have or want to rent one. I'm not gonna buy a bunch of mics on top of that anyway, to upgrade that part of the chain rather a portable recorder with stereo mic like the Zoom H series or Tascams DR.

Then there's the form factor where the digital mixers are a bit bulky to drag around for smaller sessions or from one PC to another for a while. The multitrack recording doesn't have to be Linux compatible as long as I can overdub, mix and master on Linux afterwards.

What do you think....?
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Re: New old laptop, interface with 8-12 inputs, (saffire) firewire perhaps

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

Good news! re. Focusrite Saffire.

The super cheap ones, 14 / 24 / 24 DSP and the one just called Saffire or Saffire LE, has 2 mic preamps and 2 line in (Saffire LE's got 4).

You need more to record a group on multitracks.
The 24 has got ADAT input.
ADAT can carry 8 channels in an optical cable.
The fancy Pro 40 or 56 has 8 mic preamps and ADAT output.

The Pro 40 is about the same price as a Behringers ADA8000 and ADA8200 (8 ch mic pre).
The Pro 40 can be used as standalone mixer (with presets) and has loopbacks and mix control. Killer features compared to the Behringer.

Good news II!

Laptops with firewire has typically one port only. More can be added by express card.
A Pro 40 or Saffire 56 has 2 ports and can host another Saffire firewire device in a daisy chain.

If the PC's got 2 FW ports, two Saffires can be connected and synced into 1 interface (as seen by OS) via Focusrite's mix control software. That's probably a no-go on Linux.

Still a great alternative to get some more inputs from another cheap interface.

https://fael-downloads-prod.focusrite.c ... nit-en.pdf

summary:
a cheap 2nd hand interface with ADAT input is future-proof expandable, ADAT output devices are still available and widely used.

some of yesteryears models are listed at https://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_interf ... _chart.htm
Last edited by Fmajor7add9 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New old laptop, interface with 8-12 inputs, (saffire) firewire perhaps

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

I'm getting great interface advice elsewhere interwebs

but if any of you have exp. with Thinkpads, Dell Latitude, HP Elitebook, any old school laptop with firewire, thunderbolt and/or express card port I'll be happy to learn more
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Re: New old laptop, interface with 8-12 inputs, (saffire) firewire perhaps

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

A kind soul ran out of fire and just gave me a https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/m- ... ewire-1814

It's not in the https://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/hardware_support list and ffado's isn't online afaik so remains to be seen how Linux friendly it is.
Firewire 1814

Sample rates: 44.1 to 192 kHz on all analogue outputs and analogue inputs 1/2; 44.1 to 96 kHz on analogue inputs 3 to 8.

Analogue inputs: two, balanced XLR with switchable global +48V phantom power and 1.8kΩ impedance, or unbalanced TS quarter-inch jack instrument with 500kΩ impedance, both using mic preamp with up to 66dB gain plus optional 20dB pad, or unbalanced line-level TS jack at fixed -10dBV sensitivity and 10kΩ impedance,

plus six further identical unbalanced line-level TS jacks.

Analogue outputs: four, balanced/unbalanced TS quarter-inch jack at -10dBV level, two headphone with individual level controls.

Digital I/O: ADAT optical in and out switchable to S/PDIF optical, co-axial phono S/PDIF in and out (both S/PDIF outputs support AC3 and DTS formats), MIDI In and Out, two six-pin Firewire ports, word clock in and out (will sync to external word clock at sample rates up to 96kHz).
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/m- ... ewire-1814
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Re: New old laptop, interface with 8-12 inputs, (saffire) firewire perhaps

Post by merlyn »

Fmajor7add9 wrote:A kind soul ran out of fire and just gave me a https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/m- ... ewire-1814
And you want to use that with a laptop? Years ago I helped my friend set up a ... eh ... Windows laptop with a Firewire interface. At first it didn't work and this was due to the Cardbus Firewire adapter. The solution was to get a Siig Cardbus card. I've seen a lot of issues with Firewire and the exact chipset used -- Texas Instruments are recommended for PCIe cards for example. In my friend's case it was a Siig card that worked. He's still using it and it still works.
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Re: New old laptop, interface with 8-12 inputs, (saffire) firewire perhaps

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

merlyn wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:38 pm
Fmajor7add9 wrote:A kind soul ran out of fire and just gave me a https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/m- ... ewire-1814
And you want to use that with a laptop? Years ago I helped my friend set up a ... eh ... Windows laptop with a Firewire interface. At first it didn't work and this was due to the Cardbus Firewire adapter. The solution was to get a Siig Cardbus card. I've seen a lot of issues with Firewire and the exact chipset used -- Texas Instruments are recommended for PCIe cards for example. In my friend's case it was a Siig card that worked. He's still using it and it still works.
yes, I'm using the same driver already on a Win 7 laptop for the M-audio Ozonic firewire interface.

Not sure about the laptop express card firewire busses though that could come into play on the next old laptop, unless I get a mini PC of some kind with VNC thin client remote as indicated in another thread.

My understanding now is that even if the firewire bus can provide bus power through a 6 pin FW port the devices will probably ramp up the battery usage quickly. 7W is supposedly offered.

If that is somehow correct I'll look into CPU benchmarks between suitable desktop and laptops vs. price gaps vs. price for building a battery power pack of some sort.
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Re: New old laptop, interface with 8-12 inputs, (saffire) firewire perhaps

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

The FW bus power details seems to check out. Many reports on bus powered interfaces and disks, mostly from desktop users or mains powered laptop users, typically using one device. So at least the 2nd and 3rd device needs its own 12v supply.

A new detour direction appeared in the meantime after thinking aloud in another thread re. using a desktop tower PC of some sort, stuffed away from music room, remote controlled or connected by long cables.

It's related to the battery req. mentioned above here. Realized that that's only spec'd for rare off-grid multitracking situations where a powerhouse audio interface device host PC may not be needed at all.

What I have in mind is pure live recording, rarely more than 10-12 tracks, without repeated overdubbing on fine tuned low latency monitor mixes through loads of fx plugin busses. Just a rough quick mix to use for extra vocal harmonies and instrument solo takes now and then. Basically anything the old school rugged battery powered SD recorders would do.

That wouldn't require i7 and above speeds I guess. Some of the interfaces I've found have onboard DSP for comp and reverb so that's also an option. If the fan is too noisy during workload then move it away and remote control with simple MIDI/OSC controllers or apps to do basic stuff like press record, stop, rewind, create new project/take.

Depending on what pops up used around here that could open the field a bit more. Laptops with broken or bad displays and such. Even my old i5 clunker could be kept around as domestic main machine with the same remote cable setup used. Untill it catches fire or whatever happens to old Elitebooks.

I want a general purpose power bank brick battery thing in any case so desktops and home theater PCs could also be relevant (depending on wattage). Then there's also extra power to small speakers and LED lights at night, camera and phone charging and so on. Should be possible to keep all of that below 100W. There's a sprawling DIY community going around that as expected and some great OEM options like https://generatorpick.com/best-portable-power-station.
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Re: New old laptop, interface with 8-12 inputs, (saffire) firewire perhaps

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

I've asked about VFIO on https://www.reddit.com/r/VFIO/comments/ ... ire_audio/

If doable Win 7 could be jailed in a VM with direct low latency access to the FW interfaces. Some apps and the interface software mixers could run there as well. Stereo or multitrack out to Linux host by cable or lan. Will require a quad core at minimum.

If interface drivers are ok for some i/o Linux tasks that's fine.

Purpose of all this is to avoid dual booting to Windows or building a Hackintosh.
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