Ultralite AVB

Talk about your MIDI interfaces, microphones, keyboards...

Moderators: MattKingUSA, khz

User avatar
fohdeesha
Established Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:44 am
Location: Indianapolis
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by fohdeesha »

bluebell wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:37 am What a tragedy. It runs Linux but works best with Windows and Mac.
Sadly this irony was not lost on me - poking through their firmware archive, it seems their entire modern lineup is powered by linux, atleast the AVB capable models. Stupid that they've completely ignored linux on the user end of things. To top it off, it seems they're not publishing the source for *any* of their GPL stuff anywhere either, namely u-boot first comes to mind
Silhm
Established Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:59 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by Silhm »

fohdeesha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:50 am Hey all - I managed to get root on the Ultralite AVB (the embedded linux OS that runs on it). I don't know if it could be of any use to you guys (probably not), but perhaps it could at least be of some assistance during debug (I certainly saw some messages regarding USB events in the root telnet console and dmesg that didn't show up anywhere else) - https://forums.servethehome.com/index.p ... otu.32564/
Well done! this opens a lot of new possibilities!
I saw that ssutils in /opt has an option to read the "Auto Power Mode flag" ( -ap ) , meaning that maybe we could write it to enable this mode (that one thing I dont really like about the UltraliteAVB is the long press to power it on instead of turning on the rack power).

I noticed that writing an html file to the www folder makes it accessible from the interface (it seems deleted once I reboot the motu)
I could then develop a MIDI control page to update parameters with my MIDI surface control. (For now, I'm using an ESP32 that uses MIDI input and the JSON API through the network to update things).
Thanks !
shellwalker
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:54 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by shellwalker »

fohdeesha wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:13 am To top it off, it seems they're not publishing the source for *any* of their GPL stuff anywhere either, namely u-boot first comes to mind
This was the next question that came to my mind.
Wonder what FSF would think about this....

But maybe it is worth asking MOTU politely for the source. I'm not sure whether GPL necessitates hosting of some automatic access (FTP, WWW etc) to code as such. I think GPL does not care about how the source is made available, so asking for a CDROM could probably also do. But then, I'm not an expert on the matter.

MOTU 828mk3, MOTU 828ES, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Kubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, https://github.com/shellwalker-coder/motu_patch_testing

User avatar
bluebell
Established Member
Posts: 1903
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:44 am
Location: Saarland, Germany
Has thanked: 111 times
Been thanked: 114 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by bluebell »

baptiste wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:21 pm
fohdeesha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:50 am Hey all - I managed to get root on the Ultralite AVB (the embedded linux OS that runs on it). I don't know if it could be of any use to you guys (probably not), but perhaps it could at least be of some assistance during debug (I certainly saw some messages regarding USB events in the root telnet console and dmesg that didn't show up anywhere else) - https://forums.servethehome.com/index.p ... otu.32564/
Awesome. Now we have to find the pesky slowly_and_randomly_drift() function :)
I guess that's simply a bug in the Linux kernel's ALSA-USB-Code else it would happen on iPads and Macs, too.

Linux – MOTU UltraLite AVB – Qtractor – http://suedwestlicht.saar.de/

baptiste
Established Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by baptiste »

fohdeesha wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:13 am
bluebell wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:37 am What a tragedy. It runs Linux but works best with Windows and Mac.
Sadly this irony was not lost on me - poking through their firmware archive, it seems their entire modern lineup is powered by linux, atleast the AVB capable models. Stupid that they've completely ignored linux on the user end of things. To top it off, it seems they're not publishing the source for *any* of their GPL stuff anywhere either, namely u-boot first comes to mind
If the GPL'd stuff they use is not modified, they don't have to release the source, do they ?
shellwalker
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:54 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by shellwalker »

bluebell wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:41 pm
I guess that's simply a bug in the Linux kernel's ALSA-USB-Code else it would happen on iPads and Macs, too.
Yes, I think so too.
However there is also the possibility that Mac and iPad have the same non-compliant implementation (both devices are produced by the same company, right?) and that MOTU has adapted their stack in the AVB device to accomodate for that, not caring about breaking the true class compliance. It would be great to have another independent OS with its own USB Audio implementation as a cross-check for this. Which of the other free OS support this?

MOTU 828mk3, MOTU 828ES, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Kubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, https://github.com/shellwalker-coder/motu_patch_testing

shellwalker
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:54 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by shellwalker »

baptiste wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:54 pm
If the GPL'd stuff they use is not modified, they don't have to release the source, do they ?
My understanding of the GPL is that they need to provide the source regardless of whether they have modified the "original" or not. They need to provide the source that can be used to reproduce the binary you receive. If they've modified it, then they need to provide the modifications as well.
But I guess this GPL compliance discussion is drifting off too far from the initial thread topic :D

MOTU 828mk3, MOTU 828ES, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Kubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, https://github.com/shellwalker-coder/motu_patch_testing

User avatar
fohdeesha
Established Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:44 am
Location: Indianapolis
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by fohdeesha »

Silhm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:34 am
fohdeesha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:50 am Hey all - I managed to get root on the Ultralite AVB (the embedded linux OS that runs on it). I don't know if it could be of any use to you guys (probably not), but perhaps it could at least be of some assistance during debug (I certainly saw some messages regarding USB events in the root telnet console and dmesg that didn't show up anywhere else) - https://forums.servethehome.com/index.p ... otu.32564/
Well done! this opens a lot of new possibilities!
I saw that ssutils in /opt has an option to read the "Auto Power Mode flag" ( -ap ) , meaning that maybe we could write it to enable this mode (that one thing I dont really like about the UltraliteAVB is the long press to power it on instead of turning on the rack power).

I noticed that writing an html file to the www folder makes it accessible from the interface (it seems deleted once I reboot the motu)
I could then develop a MIDI control page to update parameters with my MIDI surface control. (For now, I'm using an ESP32 that uses MIDI input and the JSON API through the network to update things).
Thanks !
There's a physical jumper inside the AVB models that will enable auto-power-on, I believe this ssutil option just reads the status of that GPIO. So if you just open it up and move the jumper over to pins 1-2, it'll auto power on :) (disassembly tip: the front and rear hex screws don't do anything, you only need to remove the two phillips screws on the top of the device)

Image

Great idea with the html hosting! There's a "permanent/non-volatile" mount for user settings etc, if you put something there, it will survive reboots and firmware updates. Then you'd just need to create or modify one of the boot scripts to copy your permanent content from there into the tempFS once it boots.
baptiste wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:54 pm
fohdeesha wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:13 am
bluebell wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:37 am What a tragedy. It runs Linux but works best with Windows and Mac.
Sadly this irony was not lost on me - poking through their firmware archive, it seems their entire modern lineup is powered by linux, atleast the AVB capable models. Stupid that they've completely ignored linux on the user end of things. To top it off, it seems they're not publishing the source for *any* of their GPL stuff anywhere either, namely u-boot first comes to mind
If the GPL'd stuff they use is not modified, they don't have to release the source, do they ?
There's definitely some modified stuff anyway, if you watch the boot output, their u-boot build has "MOTU" and "UltraLite AVB build xxx" printed everywhere. Anyhow, I didn't mean to derail the thread. Apologies!
tvaz
Established Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:55 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by tvaz »

Thanks @fohdeesha, it's not you who got a bit off-topic here, it was *us* who got too excited with your wonderful hacking!!

Although I have sold my device, I still have some hope this AVB line will be working on Linux. Not that I expect anything from the company, but I do expect good news from this amazing community.

Wrt the possible GPL violation by Motu, there is also Software Freedom Conservancy providing some good assistance (https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/).
shellwalker
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:54 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by shellwalker »

fohdeesha wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:19 pm
There's definitely some modified stuff anyway, if you watch the boot output, their u-boot build has "MOTU" and "UltraLite AVB build xxx" printed everywhere. Anyhow, I didn't mean to derail the thread. Apologies!
@fohdeesha No, you were not derailing the thread at all. If anything, then your contribution has been one of the most tangible since some time now! Please do keep up the good work!
Mea Culpa: it was me and some others who simply started wondering about the license stuff and all - which is ok as an initial thought, but _we_ need to take care not to hijack the thread. We could think about opening up another thread just for that GPL topic, if anyone cares.

@fohdeesha: do you have any expertise on USB in the kernel? Or do you see any way we could gain some more insights into what's going wrong? I tend to believe that the fault is on the Linux side of things. I have no proof of that though - I tried running a FreeBSD image on the same machine yesterday, but audio over my MOTU 828ES did not work at all, even though the FreeBSD kernel "recognized" the device in dmesg.

I'll search around for some other alternative free OS which supports USB audio, just to see whether by chance anything works better than Linux - not meaning to replace my beloved Linux, just as a method of finding the culprit :).

MOTU 828mk3, MOTU 828ES, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Kubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, https://github.com/shellwalker-coder/motu_patch_testing

shellwalker
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:54 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by shellwalker »

shellwalker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:38 am I'll search around for some other alternative free OS which supports USB audio, just to see whether by chance anything works better than Linux - not meaning to replace my beloved Linux, just as a method of finding the culprit :).
After some experiments with a few other open-source OSes I've not got much further:
1. FreeBSD: MOTU828ES is shown in dmesg, but I got no sound out of it using Audacity.

2. Haiku (BeOS compatible): my MOTU device did not show up anywhere I looked. However I'm not familiar with Haiku, so I could not find anything similar to dmesg. Maybe that would have shown something. But it would have been of little help, since on application level, the device did not show up.

3. OpenBSD: very unstable X environment. Freezing the system every now and then. Unstable network setup. But dmesg shows the MOTU device. I'll still give it another try by copying a wav-file to a USB-stick and then trying to use a command-line tool for playing it over the MOTU device.

*sigh* after all these trials, I am so much more glad that Linux has come so far!! It appears to be the most stable and advanced free OS we have (at least in terms of desktop end-user experience; I'm not questioning Free-/Open BSD suitability to other domains like networking...).

Does anyone know another free OS I could try the MOTU device on?

MOTU 828mk3, MOTU 828ES, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Kubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, https://github.com/shellwalker-coder/motu_patch_testing

Drumfix
Established Member
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:15 pm
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by Drumfix »

The channel hopping is there on MacOS as well when used with USB. Its just that most Macies run the 828ES via thunderbolt.
Btw early in this thread i posted a userspace program using libusb to copying what is received from the inputs directly to the outputs without alsa being involved at all. And it also experiencing the bug.

viewtopic.php?p=96236#p96236
shellwalker
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:54 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by shellwalker »

Drumfix wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:41 am The channel hopping is there on MacOS as well when used with USB. Its just that most Macies run the 828ES via thunderbolt.
Btw early in this thread i posted a userspace program using libusb to copying what is received from the inputs directly to the outputs without alsa being involved at all. And it also experiencing the bug.

viewtopic.php?p=96236#p96236
Hi Drumfix,
thanks so much for chiming in and giving the hint. I admittedly did not manage to cover every contribution in the thread, so I totally missed that point.
If the issue occurs on Mac as well, then we have a good argument for MOTU to take this issue seriously!

Just a few questions to help me get the picture right:
1. Do you have any references to Mac-Users that experienced the hopping with USB or did you perhaps experience that yourself on a Mac?

2. Would it be possible to use the libusb-based userspace program on a Mac as a proof of defect towards MOTU then? If they fix it because the MacOS community reports this, then I'd assume it would be fixed for Linux, right?

3. Would it make a difference if I used thunderbolt on my Linux-laptop instead of the USB port?

MOTU 828mk3, MOTU 828ES, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Kubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, https://github.com/shellwalker-coder/motu_patch_testing

Drumfix
Established Member
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:15 pm
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by Drumfix »

1. Do you have any references to Mac-Users that experienced the hopping with USB or did you perhaps experience that yourself on a Mac?
Here for example.
https://www.motunation.com/forum/viewto ... 7&start=15

2. Would it be possible to use the libusb-based userspace program on a Mac as a proof of defect towards MOTU then? If they fix it because the MacOS community reports this, then I'd assume it would be fixed for Linux, right?
Sure, but Motu ignores the problems for almost 3 years now.

3. Would it make a difference if I used thunderbolt on my Linux-laptop instead of the USB port?
It simply won't work at all. Over thunderbolt the device is like a remote PCIe card that requires a proprietary driver.
shellwalker
Established Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:54 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Ultralite AVB

Post by shellwalker »

Drumfix wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:46 am 1. Do you have any references to Mac-Users that experienced the hopping with USB or did you perhaps experience that yourself on a Mac?
Here for example.
https://www.motunation.com/forum/viewto ... 7&start=15

2. Would it be possible to use the libusb-based userspace program on a Mac as a proof of defect towards MOTU then? If they fix it because the MacOS community reports this, then I'd assume it would be fixed for Linux, right?
Sure, but Motu ignores the problems for almost 3 years now.

3. Would it make a difference if I used thunderbolt on my Linux-laptop instead of the USB port?
It simply won't work at all. Over thunderbolt the device is like a remote PCIe card that requires a proprietary driver.
Thanks a lot Drumfix! That certainly throws another light on the whole discussion.... :shock:
It seems that all the fuss about fixing Linux may have been wasted effort.

But: maybe it is possible to create a workaround for the bug in the MOTU device? Maybe using the libusb-based tracer would help to find some kind of a pattern which could enable creating a workaround? What do you think?

EDIT (16.04.2021): see my revised thought on this here: viewtopic.php?p=131728#p131728
Last edited by shellwalker on Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MOTU 828mk3, MOTU 828ES, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Kubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, https://github.com/shellwalker-coder/motu_patch_testing

Post Reply