Is the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 the right choice for me?

[tux99]

I have a rack with a few hardware synths that feed into a 10 channel desktop mixer. I use a Linux sequencer (currently Rosegarden) to control and play the synths via MIDI. So far so good, no PC audio hardware is involved as I prefer the 'stability' of hardware synths rather than their software equivalents and everything works fine. Now I do also want to use the PC as hard disk recorder but I only need it to record the final mix that comes from the desktop mixer, I don't need individual inputs (also because my mixer doesn't have per channel outputs/inserts anyway).

So basically all I need is sound card of some type (internal PCI or PCIe or external USB) with a 2 channel line level input, preferably capable of recording at 24bit and at least at 48Khz (I'm not sure if 96KHz would make any difference in practice?).

After lots of reading around (including on this forum) I decided that despite it's age the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 is probably the best solution for me as it seems fully supported in Linux. My only worry is (and the reason why I would have preferred an external USB device) is interference as the ADchip sits inside the PC.

So my questions:
Is the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 fairly immune from EM interference by other PC components and does it have a good real life SN ratio compared to similar priced USB audio devices?
Or is there any USB audio device around the same price (~$100) that provides better value for money for my use-case?

[j_e_f_f_g]

I own/use an audiophile 2496 with linux. It works fine in a motherboard with native PCI support. Do not use it (nor any other PCI audio card) in a motherboard that does PCI emulation, such as a motherboard using Intel's z77 chipset (nor any newer intel chips). The PCI card will "work", but horribly -- with dreadful latency just to overcome audio dropouts. Use only PCIe cards when dealing with chipsets like the z77. There are very few companies making quality PCIe audio cards. Musicians don't like opening their computer cases, and so since the days of firewire and usb, musicians have eschewed internal cards in favor of firewire/usb. The market has spoken. It's unfortunate because you can actually get better latency with even some old PCI card, like the audiophile, than you get from some brand new usb interface. This is especially true if the usb is hobbyist stuff like those cheap alesis, lexicon, m-audio (they make cheap usb toys like the Fast Track, in addition to their more pro-oriented PCI cards), low-end focusrite, et al, stuff that folks around here continually recommend. Because maybe you heard about how the good, higher-tolerance yet affordable stuff like say an RME Babyface, MOTU track16, Roland quad-capture, etc is "no go" with linux?

I'm not going to even tell you about the few PCIe cards available. None of them are supported by linux. Especially not the EMU 1616m or 1212m (with the included EMU1010 PCIe card). If someone tells you otherwise, please give him a knee to the groin for me. So if you need a PCIe card, forget it. Wait here, and I'll send someone around to sell you on a cheap linux-supported usb device. Don't expect it to perform like those MIDI hardware synths you got there. Just learn to like it even if it hurts. And if you're the kind who's fussing over EM interference (for those in the balcony seats, he means a tiny bit of "hum" and maybe an occasional "crackle"), imma not gonna lie. This could hurt.

But let's assume your mobo be down with plain ole PCI. Yes, the 2496 is old technology. No, it ain't gonna be as pristine as an RME Multiface II, or MOTU 428 io, or Lynx aurora. (And forget them anyway since... no linux workee). But the 2496 was never designed to be a $10 gamer's card. No, it's not gonna hum and crackle unless something from a Poltergeist movie has possessed your computer case. And anyway you're comparison-shopping it against some hobbyist usb interface. Have you heard the same, cheap, off-the-shelf chinese chipsets they all use? I'd describe it as "the soothing sounds of nature". You know -- a simulation of little grasshoppers chirping beside an ever-babbling brook. You want that on all your recordings, right? And given that this cheap stuff uses the same off-the-shelf parts, and knowing how common it is for companies to outsource these low-tolerance designs, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the biggest difference between two of them is that some third-world factory worker stenciled "io2" on one unit, and then the very same worker rearranged the letters to stencil "2i2" on the other unit.

So your choice is between a 2496 and a cheap usb unit? Me, I'd go right for the 2496. And I did. But in hindsight, I'd stalk ebay for a used M-audio Delta 1010LT. It works in linux at least as well as the 2496, and the LT was actually the last of the m-audio PCI cards, and the one with the best s/n and thd specs. Note that's the 1010LT, not the ironically higher priced non-LT version (with the rackmount dock). In fact, once a month I still ebay-stalk for an LT, just cause I'm fussy wanting better. You sound fussy too. Maybe you should ebay-stalk an LT. Make sure the deal includes the breakout cable that ships with the PCI card. But don't outbid me, or I'll pummel you with a $600 linux audio paperweight (aka an EMU 1616m).

[j_e_f_f_g]

oh yeah it's me again. i just noticed I neglected to answer one of your questions. So I'm back to "waste your time" with another "rant".

If you're just gonna go with 2 tracks (not multiple tracks overdubbed and mixed), and just make a plain old audio CD out of that anyway, then do it direct and quick. Just capture the 2 tracks 16-bit (non-float... ie, integer format if your software supports such settings) 48KHz. Trim unwanted silence at start/end. Burn to CD. Done.

If you're gonna fool with adding plugins, and other (amplitude) processing to the tracks, and overdubbing/mixing additional tracks, then go ahead and consider the added dynamic headroom benefits you get from 24-bit. If doing some time-based processing (like time-stretching or pitch-shifting), then go ahead and consider the added benefits you get from 96KHz (but frankly not as much benefit as you get moving from 16 to 24 bit. So don't sweat the 48 to 96KHz transition. If your software/hardware gives you any trouble or degradation at 96KHz, like maybe suddenly a bunch of xruns, or plugins crashing, then rush on back to 48KHz and give it no further thought. Your setup isn't top-of-the-line audio production anyway, so consider not even hassling with the lesser tweaks which may not yield results you can even detect).

But don't start doing ridiculous things that make no sense given the limits of human hearing -- like recording at 192KHz -- or I'll have to tell your wife that you're 'meta-physically masturbating' in your music room.

[tux99]

Thanks for your detailed reply. My mobo uses the AMD 770 + SB700 chipset which I believe supports native PCI. In any case (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think latency matters much in my case, as I will only use the PC as a hard disk recorder of the final mix output from the desktop mixer, but I might then afterwards (not in real-time) further process the recording (compression, some EQ, possibly some FX) on the PC.

BTW, why are you talking of the 1010LT like it's no longer available? At least here where I am it's still available new, but as it costs ~$200 it's twice my budget: http://www.toppreise.ch/prod_14271.html

[j_e_f_f_g]

AMD 770 + SB700 chipset which I believe supports native PCI.

I'm not too familiar with AMD's recent offerings. The last AMD-based system I had was the Athlon64 -- long time ago. I think you're right about AMD's current PCI support.

But it's quite a different matter for these new intel z77 motherboards.

don't think latency matters much in my case, as I will only use the PC as a hard disk recorder of the final mix output from the desktop mixer, but I might then afterwards (not in real-time) further process the recording (compression, some EQ, possibly some FX) on the PC.

Right. Latency is more an issue if you were using softsynths, for example. Not for what you're doing, per se.

But we're talking some of the worse latency one can encounter. I have used Rosegarden, but not for audio editing, so I don't know what it does there. But the software I use, features something most programs call "non-destructive realtime editing". Here's how it works. Say I bring up a graphic EQ to modify a wave. The wave starts playing, and as I move the various sliders for the EQ bands, I hear every non-permanent change I'm making in realtime. Let me tell you, it's a huge timesaver, especially when making/comparing a series of repetitive edits. I don't need to bring up the EQ dialog, move the 1KHz slider up 2db, click the ok button, click the play button and say "I want another 1db boost", click the stop button, maybe need to click undo depending on whether the 1KHz slider is sitting at 2db and if I bump it to 3 it will give me another 3db rather than 1, click the ok button, click the play button again. No, I move the slider to 2db while I'm simultaneously hearing the result.

But maybe I don't hear it "simultaneously" because I'm dealing with a terrible latency. Maybe I need to pause for a second or two after each edit to give my brain time to acclimate to that delay between my hand movement and what my ear heard, before I can begin to process "Do I like this edit?". That's got to be annoying/disruptive.

Fortunately, the issue of latency due to pci emulation is a moot point to you. But as you start to "work in the box" (WTB) more, you may find you want really want low latency more than you anticipated.

why are you talking of the 1010LT like it's no longer available? At least here where I am it's still available new

Oh sure, M-audio still has new stock of PCI cards. But they're no different/better than the originals that come up periodically used on ebay. I assumed you did what I did and spot a great deal on a used 2496. I could have bought one new from Amazon. But I instead spent less on what was, and still is, every bit as good as the new Amazon one. The only gotcha was I didn't know about the 2496 breakout cable. The guy didn't specify, nor ship that. I ended up having to spend an extra $15 buying one from m-audio.

But if I were to do it all over, i would have instead scored a used Delta 1010LT. The good news is these come up on ebay more frequently than audiophile 2496's do. The former were better sellers.

Right now, there isn't a used one on ebay, but Amazon has 3 used ones starting at $145. Me, I'm waiting to grab one on ebay for around $130. I don't need one. I just kind of want one cuz maybe it might be useful someday when I'm tinkering with linux. But if I had to choose right now today between a new 2496 for $85, or a used $145 lt, I'd go for the lt. But that's me and my money. You have to decide for you and your money.

[tux99]

I got my Audiophile 2496 card today, will install it over the weekend and see how it goes.

Here were I am these cards show up very rarely second-hand (and buying them on ebay from abroad is not worth it due to high shipping costs) so my only choice was brand new and the 1010LT was way over my budget.

[steevc]

@tux99 Good luck with the new card. Hope it gives you good results.

[j_e_f_f_g]

Now that you bought it, here are some tips:

First, don't use a revision of ALSA earlier than 18. The maudio cards perform horribly in earlier revisions, with excessive underruns. Something in 18 fixed this. ALSA is currently around revision 25, so any distro in the last couple years should be fine.

Secondly, the 2496 has 4 output channels. There's the left and right analog out channels (two mono RCA jacks), and the left and right digital out channels (on the one stereo RCA jack labeled "SPDIF Out" upon the breakout cable). On other maudio cards, there are more analog outs. For example, the Delta 1010LT has 4 stereo analog outs (for a total of 8 channels), plus its SPDIF out. In total, the LT has 10 output channels. To save costs, maudio used the same 10 channel controller chip in various cards, for example both the LT and 2496. On the LT, 8 channels go to digital-to-analog converters (DACs) wired to 8 RCA jacks. On the 2496, only 2 channels go to digital-to-analog converters (DACs) wired to the two RCA out jacks. The next 6 channels go nowhere -- they're internally disconnected. Still, as far as linux is concerned, it must nevertheless deal with a card whose controller has 10 output chans. When you start up JACK (or are configuring a program that directly speaks to ALSA), you must tell JACK your 2496 has 10 output channels. You'll then see those 10 outs displayed in JACK's patch panel. Channels 1/2 are the left/right analog RCA outs. If you set a Rosegarden track to channel 1 and/or 2, you'll hear that track mixed to the analog out(s). Channels 3 to 8 are the 6 disconnected channels. If you set a Rosegarden track to channels 3 to 8, you won't hear that track at all. Channels 9/10 are the left/right digital RCA out. If you set a Rosegarden track to channel 9 and/or 10, that track is mixed to the SPDIF out.

Yes, you can use the analog outs, and SPDIF out, simultaneously. And have different mixes going to each.

[tux99]

Jeff, thanks for the tips, much appreciated.

I have now connected the master output of my desktop mixer to the two analog inputs and the two analog outputs of the card to two inputs on the mixer and both recording and playback with Audacity works fine (tested at 44.1 and 48KHz, 16 and 24 bit).
The MIDI ports aren't connected as I don't need them currently (I have a Midisport 4x4 USB for MIDI), but Rosegarden sees them, so they appear functional too. I have no need for the digital I/O for now.

I'm glad to say the cards appears dead silent, no background noise or EMF interference from the PC, so I'm perfectly happy with it and installation was a 100% plug and play experience.

[j_e_f_f_g]

Two used m-audio Delta 1010LT showed up on ebay yesterday. Anyone wanting an m-audio PCI card should continually check ebay and amazon, since used m-audio cards come and go. And used is as good as new since there were never any revision changes nor firmware updates. (ie, A driver that works for one Delta 66, works for any other Delta 66).

The m-audio PCI cards are the best linux-supported PCI cards, still in production. They aren't the best PCI cards in production. They aren't an RME HDSP II, or Lynx 2, or MOTU 24 i/o. But those latter choices don't work under linux, and the m-audio cards are good products which frankly should sound better than the cheap usb interfaces lots of you guys are buying. Plus, PCI will typically give lower latency than usb or firewire.

The PCI product line is here: http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=pro ... interfaces

If someone is interested, I can give more details on the differences between models. Here's a useful chart: http://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_interfa ... _chart.htm

[tux99]

Jeff I agree with you, but the M-Audio cards are only an option for desktop PCs and I think quite a few of those people choosing USB cards use them with laptops. It's kinda hard to fit a PCI card in a laptop...

[channelite]

I’m using the Delta 2496 in my old AMD Phenom 2 955 based pc, with Linux Lite installed. I was trying to use my iconnectivity audio 4+, but kept getting xruns when no apps were running. So I had delta 2496 which was used for an old Mac and now I get hardly any xruns. My DAW is Bitwig 2.3.5 and I keep the buffer 128 / 3 in qjackctl. I know usb interfaces have to be on their own bus and have its own irq. I’m really happy with this Linux Lite system. It’s basically all old hardware and it runs great.

[GraysonPeddie]

I didn't realize the thread dates back to 2012 until the thread got resurrected. I suppose thread resurrection is a normal occurrence.