NKSP and linuxsampler

Link to good samples/soundfonts at http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/free_audio_data

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programLyrique
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NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by programLyrique »

Hi,

Linuxsampler has added support for instrument scripts for the GIG format: NKSP. NKSP means not KSP but apparently, there is some intersection between KSP (the scripting language for Kontakt instruments) and NKSP.

Have you tried NKSP? Do you think it could help porting Kontakt instruments to GIG (and sfz when sfz will support NKSP, which is said to be not so difficult to add)?
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glowrak guy
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by glowrak guy »

Native Instruments charge a licensing fee, to use their
proprietary audio file wrappers, enabling use of your sounds
in their Kontakt player. Not cheap.

Let's say you do comprehensive recordings of your sister playing violin.
You can use these as you and your sister agree. You don't need
commercial software formats. Most software will use them as-is.

Cracking the proprietary codes of well lawered industry leading businesses,
will not make you lucky. The Rhine is cold, and deep.
brrrrrr

glowrak guy
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by glowrak guy »

Here is an example of a commercial KSP product:

http://www.soniccouture.com/en/products ... riptorium/

Note the requirement, 'Requires Full Kontakt'

On the bright side, it looks like a steal of a bargain, for a Kontakt owner.
Cheers

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programLyrique
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by programLyrique »

I know about that... I started reverse engineering some Kontakt sample formats (such as nkr)... which was easy for the unencrypted ones (which were some gziped xml) before a new version of a few years ago, but this is not what I am speaking about with the NKSP language.

There are actually some (lots of) Kontakt instruments that are developped also by casual users, and distributed for free (such as teh pocket Blakus). KSP or NKSP is useful because it makes it possible to program your sampler to more interesting things than with a sampler than can just output some fixed sound on a note. For instance, some scripts can emulate legato, add another notes when playing a particular note and so on...

If you have the samples and you have the KSP scripts providing by the ones who created them, if they allow you to do it, you can use them for another purpose, for instance to create a GIG with NKSP. No need to reverse engineering anything and it's perfectly legal.
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glowrak guy
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by glowrak guy »

You can apply for a legal license to use xyz, from those who kontrol the rights to xyz.
I've never read that Native Instruments allows reverse engineering any of their proprietary formats.

Here's a few scripting links for legal ownrs of Kontakt:

http://www.nilsliberg.se/ksp/scripts/tutorial/

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul10/ ... ntakt1.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab2Pccgyn4I

glowrak guy
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by glowrak guy »

Bitwig makes heavy use of java, maybe there is a way to help integrate the capabilities of the
linux sampler vst version, in bitwig, for enhanced use, without needing a proprietary language?

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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by Arthurx »

Linux sampler guys, thanks a lot for this new feature!!!!! :D :D

Of somebody makes a new sound. I really would like to test it.
:roll: :D
Arthur

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programLyrique
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by programLyrique »

Reverse engineering is legal in lots of countries in the world, in spite of whatever a license can say. For instance, in France, by the article L122-6-1 of the code of intellectual property, and more generally, in the EU, in the directives 2009/24/CE of the European Parliament and the Council of Europe of 23rd April 2009..

And NKSP is actually not proprietary... it is opensource! (contrary to KSP).
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glowrak guy
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by glowrak guy »

So why is your great legal mind asking at this forum, instead of contacting
Native Instruments expert support staff directly?

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programLyrique
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by programLyrique »

I am feeling there is a kind of misunderstanding here, isn't there?
Why did you start speaking about cracking and so on about NKSP?

I should not have diverged onto reverse engineering (and then to its legality or not, which is an interesting question, but irrelevant to this topic): there is not reverse engineering that has happened to create NKSP as far as I know (if it was not clear either, I am not the creator of NKSP).
I also reacted against what you said on the topic of "their proprietary audio file wrappers", which have not been reverse engineered in any way by NKSP as it is to be used with sfz, which uses wav, ogg or flac in the linuxsampler version.

If I may state again what I said: imagine someone who has sampled an instrument, let's say a violin, and this person has decided to create a Kontakt instrument and to distribute it (let's say even to sell it), and that he needed to use a KSP script for this instrument to program a legato. Later, he realizes that it could be interesting to release his instrument as a sfz. He starts making it but he also needs to write a script. And it is now possible using NKSP to write a script to program also this kind of legato he needs for Linuxsampler. He owns the samples, and he owns the algorithm for legato he imagined himself. Where are the legal or even ethical impediments to this legitimate porting to sfz of his own instrument?

And I don't really understand the remark about asking Native instrument support about that: how could they comment on the effectiveness of NKSP which is something they are not involved in and do not sell? I guess they only support (and know) their own products...
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glowrak guy
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by glowrak guy »

The example you promote, "imagine someone who has sampled an instrument, let's say a violin, and this person has decided to create a Kontakt instrument and to distribute it (let's say even to sell it)", is not an island unto itself. There are contracts, rules, and fees
involved in marketing a Kontakt instrument. As a business, Native Instruments have a vested interest
in insuring a high level of quality, in their Kontakt sampler, it's player version, and among the instruments available for it.

Their Kontakt business plan revolves around a full version, and a player version. If the prospective
developer chooses for paying the licensing fee to use the player, almost anyone can use the product.
If they choose not pay the fee, only owners of the full version of Kontakt will get unrestricted use of the instrument,
as Kontakt will revert to 'demo mode', and time-out every 15 minutes.

I'm one of many people who have spent a few hours promoting linux as an alternative OS for musicians.
People with different motives, means, hopes, and expectations, share some common ground,
in seeing and using great new commercial linux software, and Native Instruments do at least acknowledge
they do some testing with linux on their hardware, such that some products
work really well in a linux environment. Seeing linux users respecting the rules,
might encourage more developers to create linux products, and Kontakt is probably
high on many lists. I prefer SampleTank and Dimension Pro, myself.

I would either respect a companies policies and eula, or find other tools, regardless of changing laws.
Scripting languages are not a rarity, and I've not read that Native Instruments have mastered the genre.
Some people even enjoy the nuances of their scripting imperfections, as a form of job security insurance.
Cheers

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programLyrique
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by programLyrique »

I'm aware of all this details about Kontakt and Kontakt instruments, and I don't see why it would prevent the creators of an instrument to create a version of its instrument for another sampler per se. A quick search on Google returns lots of results of instruments in various formats, for instance, this random one which is available as a Kontakt instrument, as a soundfont, as a MachFive instrument and even more, and would have been sued by Native Instrument if this was not legal for them...

I am personally glad that Linuxsampler is promoting their news scripting language NKSP as I think it unravels new technical possibilities for native Linux samplers that did not exist before, but were available in sampling engines such as Kontakt (and other ones).
You are saying that you would try to find other tools, and that is exactly the point: the addition of NKSP to linuxsampler is not Kontakt, but another tool that is available to finally create more expressive instruments than Linuxsampler alone, instruments that could be potentially as expressive as Kontakt ones. I think that such news of more diversity and technical possibilities on Linux is an occasion to rejoice and not to fight against. Maybe could it even convince Kontakt to port their sampler engine natively to Linux!
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glowrak guy
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by glowrak guy »

It's pretty simple, to work WITH Native Instruments, you sign a contract, or adhere to
their rules and eula. They get paid, and their partners hopefully achieve their desired results,
be it sales, distribution, reputation, or a notch on their resume'.

I wouldn't want to walk into court armed with

" Instead of defining a completely new script language, NKSP is leaned on that mentioned properiatary script language. "

A Native Instruments partner can do whatever they want with their own samples, code, gui's yada yada
as long as they follow whatever contractual agreement they have signed, or follow published Native Instruments rules/eula.

You really should be having this chat with one of their business representatives,
to establish accurate boundaries, and explore possible cooperations.
If you bring a solid proposal to them, they might listen carefully.
That happened with another German business, they listened to a proposal,
saw more to gain than to lose, and linux musicians now have a fine range of
world-class instruments/effects available.
Good luck!

CraigPid
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by CraigPid »

When I read this post I notice in the 1st line of the original post it says " NKSP means not KSP".

stanlea
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Re: NKSP and linuxsampler

Post by stanlea »

CraigPid wrote:When I read this post I notice in the 1st line of the original post it says " NKSP means not KSP".
When I read the description of NKSP, I only see that it is suitable for GIG files. So in order to write scripts, you need to have already GIG files, commercial or free. Or build them from waves with a GIG editor. So why is this discussion focused on the Kontakt format ?

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