DrumGizmo kits

Link to good samples/soundfonts at http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/free_audio_data

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j_e_f_f_g
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DrumGizmo kits

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

The multi-channel drumgizmo kits don't really work well with most sfz players. So I converted the Muldjord kit to a stereo (2 chan) kit. "kit.sfz" is the whole kit (minus Ride2) mixed in stereo. There is a separate stereo sfz file for each drum, in case you want to process individual drums (except the 4 toms are in 1 sfz).

Lots of work. I had to remix everything, and do lots of phase adjustments. Normalized samples. Looped samples that fade out too quickly. Vastly reduced sample size. etc.

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Last edited by j_e_f_f_g on Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

j_e_f_f_g
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

falkTX wrote:drumgizmo has a standalone and lv2 plugin (plus vst for windows).
Not applicable. I do all my sfz stuff with Sforzando under Win. Easiest sfz tool to use.

I get what they're trying to do - recreate a multi-mic'ed studio kit setup. But ironically, mic bleed is usually precisely what an engineer strives to eliminate (via mic placement, baffling, eq, and noise gates). Why? Because of all the phase issues with that many mics on 1 instrument. I did a lot of manual phase correction on those samples, and I think this sfz result has a punchier, deeper sound and a lot better imaging, than the multi-chan version. Of course, it's cpu and ram friendlier too.

This is one of those situations were I think trying to recreate a real-life scenario is less preferable than recreating an idealized scenario.

muldjord
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by muldjord »

Hey guys,
Just stumbled upon your post and wanted to drop by and offer my help if you have any questions. I am one of the developers of the DrumGizmo software. Falktx I know of course, but if jeffg has any questions, just let me know.

We are well aware that there are phasing issues when using the kits in DrumGizmo. That will always be the case when you are working with multichannel recording. As it is noted in the MuldjordKit, there are severe phasing issues between top and bottom mic of the snaredrum, which can be fixed pretty much by phase reversing one or the other.

Anyways, the whole point of the DrumGizmo software is not to make it convenient mixing-wise. It's to make it match that of a real life mixing session for drums. All channels, all the bleed and all the issues that follow. It's difficult. But when you are working with metal and rock, that is by far my preferred method.

We do however have a wish to make it possible to control individual bleed on the drums. As jeff points out, that's one of the things that you always want to eliminate when recording a kit with so many mics. Might end up in a future version. For now, the Muldjordkit actually has a 80% reduced bleed on all mics "hardcoded" in there (not in the actual code, but I've cut it out in the wavs manually).

I love working with it myself. Much better than stereo samples for the stuff I do. So many possibilities! :D

muldjord
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by muldjord »

j_e_f_f_g wrote:The multi-channel drumgizmo kits don't really work well with most sfz players. So I converted the Muldjord kit to a stereo (2 chan) kit. "kit.sfz" is the whole kit (minus Ride2) mixed in stereo. There is a separate stereo sfz file for each drum, in case you want to process individual drums (except the 4 toms are in 1 sfz).

Lots of work. I had to remix everything, and do lots of phase adjustments. Normalized samples. Looped samples that fade out too quickly. Vastly reduced sample size. etc.

http://wikisend.com/download/161740/muldjord.zip
Hey Jeff,
I just noticed that you've put me in as the author of your sfz version of the kit. That is a bit wrong. You need to put youself in as the creator, but let people know that I made the original 16-channel samples. Otherwise people are going to ask me questions about your sfz release. So please redo the zip file with a revised version of the email clearly stating that you made the sfz version. Thank you. :)

lazyklimm
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by lazyklimm »

Hi, j_e_f_f_g, nice work! Is there any plans to make multichannel version?

The point is that I'd like to use drumgizmo kits with linuxsampler, since I'm not really happy with drumgizmo plugin itself (resampling, window manager issues etc).

j_e_f_f_g
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

lazyklimm wrote:Is there any plans to make multichannel version?
Not from those samples. Those have been specifically mixed down (and phased corrected) to stereo. For 2 chan mixes.

The original samples are standard wave files, so all you need is an sfz mapping if you want multi-channel. You don't need modified samples. (But, if you're going to mix down to stereo anyway, you're better off with the stereo version. Multi-channel should match your monitor setup. For example, if you have a 5.1 setup, ideally you want all instruments to have 6 channels, not phase-corrected).

j_e_f_f_g
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

muldjord wrote:You need to put youself in as the creator, but let people know that I made the original 16-channel samples.
Ok, that's just a temporary zip which will disappear soon. If gmaq decides to permanently host it, I'll have him add a note. Or maybe you guys want to make it available, for use with other software?

lazyklimm
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by lazyklimm »

Not from those samples.
it's obvious :)
The original samples are standard wave files, so all you need is an sfz mapping if you want multi-channel.
I know, thanks, I just want to ask if you have any kind of converting scripts, or do it all by the hands?
But, if you're going to mix down to stereo anyway, you're better off with the stereo version.
thanks, but I'd like to mix it myself :)

j_e_f_f_g
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

lazyklimm wrote:Any kind of converting scripts, or do it all by the hands?
It all has to be done manually. Each project is different, so scripts aren't applicable.
I'd like to mix it myself
It's possible to use the original samples, and create an sfz mapping for them. But it would be a complicated sfz, and it would probably be even harder to "remix" the individual drums in Linuxsampler than to just use the drumgizmo software. To have individual control over every channel for every drum sound, each waveform channel would have to be on a separate Linuxsampler chan. That's about 9 chans per drum sound, and about 118 chans for the kit. Then to play a drum, your midi message must trigger 9 chans simultaneously.

Like the drumgizmo guy said, their "multi-samples (or multi-channel wav files) per drum" approach isn't designed to be easy to mix. It's literally over a hundred chans of audio per kit. The whole point of their custom software is to try to make it "easy" to remix an instrument containing that many chans of audio. But it ain't ever easy to mix over 100 chans.

Using those multi-samples without the drumgizmo software is totally impractical... unless you create modified samples already mixed down to your final format... which is exactly what I did for a stereo mix. (Yes, I really did deal with mixing, and phase correcting, 100 chans of audio).

Conclusion: If you don't want to use the drumgizmo software, then you don't want to deal with individual drums multi-sampled to that amount. You want a format better suited to traditional samplers -- ie, a stereo or mono format.

lazyklimm
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by lazyklimm »

But it would be a complicated sfz
it would be multiple ones :)
To have individual control over every channel for every drum sound, each waveform channel would have to be on a separate Linuxsampler chan. That's about 9 chans per drum sound, and about 118 chans for the kit.
To be honest, that's about one channel per mic, ie one per instrument + overheads/room. I use Wavesfactory Classic Rock Drums now, converted (Extreme Sample Converter + shell scripts + some emacs macros magic) to 8 sfz files, loaded into 8 linuxsampler-lv2 channels -> 8 ardour audio tracks (like if I recorded real drums). Works well enough: flexible and at the same time not very complex. Furthermore, phase issues could be corrected right in the mixer.
Conclusion: If you don't want to use the drumgizmo software, then you don't want to deal with individual drums multi-sampled to that amount. You want a format better suited to traditional samplers -- ie, a stereo or mono format.
btw, kontakt drumkit libraries often use similar approach, each mic level can be controlled individally

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong :)

lazyklimm
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by lazyklimm »

It all has to be done manually. Each project is different, so scripts aren't applicable.
Sometimes sample files have good names, like Snare_CloseMic_RR1_90-127.wav (e.g. Analogue Drums use something like these now).

j_e_f_f_g
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

lazyklimm wrote:it would be multiple ones.
I use Wavesfactory Classic Rock Drums now, converted to sfz.
I see what you're doing. You're grouping samples by mic placement. So for example, if you turn up the volume of the left overhead mic (sfz file), it adds more left overhead to all drums. I thought you wanted more individual control than that, for example to add more overhead sound to the toms, but not the kick or snare. To do the latter, you need more complex sfz mapping than what you did.

It would be relatively easy to make a similiar sfz mapping for that drumgizmo kit. But that would leave out a bit of the mixing possibilities you could do. (And i bet my phase-corrected stereo version would still have more punch, body, and better imaging. It's a much more involved mix than simply adjusting the volumes of 9 mics. I adjusted the vol/phase of each individual drum on each mic, plus applied noise reduction algorithms to further reduce mic bleed).

lazyklimm
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by lazyklimm »

I see what you're doing. You're grouping samples by mic placement. So for example, if you turn up the volume of the left overhead mic (sfz file), it adds more left overhead to all drums.
yes, I think real drums are recorded this way
And i bet my phase-corrected stereo version would still have more punch, body, and better imaging.
ok, then why most commercial drumkits are not premixed?

muldjord
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by muldjord »

j_e_f_f_g wrote:Ok, that's just a temporary zip which will disappear soon. If gmaq decides to permanently host it, I'll have him add a note. Or maybe you guys want to make it available, for use with other software?
I'd like for you to change it in the temporary file aswell please. It's a public file with content in it that has a certain license applied. I understand this might seem inconvenient, but at the moment you are not adhering to the simple guidelines given in the license which you can find here: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

At the moment it doesn't explain the origin of the samples. It doesn't explain what you've done to them and it doesn't say that you did it. Please correct this, thank you. :)

j_e_f_f_g
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Re: DrumGizmo kits

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

muldjord wrote:I'd like for you to change it in the temporary file aswell
I can't. Unless you log into a wikisend account when you upload the file (which I don't do), there's no way to subsequently modify or even delete the file. (Presumably, a wikisend employee could). It simply times out, and disappears.

But the only public link to that file was in my first post here. I've deleted that link. Even I don't know the url to that file now. It is effectively no longer publically available. I'll tell gmaq not to make that zip file available on his sfz site if he grabbed a copy. (G, don't host this file).

And to anyone who downloaded the file already, please do not use the contents, and instead delete all copies.

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