Spicing up existing vocals

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JamesPeters
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby JamesPeters » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:08 pm

Zoco:

I will assume in this post that you're not trolling. In that case, you're not as experienced as you claim whether you realize it or not.

You said "I know about compressors and how to work with them", then you said "I think compressor will only give more gain". Anyone who has experience with compressors knows that's false. Compressors are primarily intended to reduce certain parts of the signal strength. If you choose to apply gain to compensate for what's reduced (it's done often), you can either match the overall volume (in RMS or peak, whatever you choose) or also increase the gain past the original signal level. It's entirely your choice.

Don't be embarrassed to admit your limitations, and your lack of experience. It took me a long time to get comfortable with how compressors work, enough to accomplish what I want with them anytime I want (for what a compressor can do, anyway). It takes most people a long time to learn these things.

You may actually be wanting to use a compressor, but not realize it. Compression and EQ--two of the most basic things we can do in a mix--are two of the most powerful and flexible things we can do in a mix. Most people could use relatively "clean" EQs and compressor plugins (freeware ones at that) and get a great sounding mix, with nothing else (or very little else) for plugins. If you don't have enough experience with compression and EQing, now is the time to admit it so you can learn and practice using compressors and EQs.

Your terms "spice" and "action" etc. are useless to this conversation so you need to abandon them. If I say "I want the vocals to have more action" it could mean something completely different from what another person says. I tried to make this clear. There is no person that will understand what you mean because they're *not* objective terms. Only *you* know what you want. To say that I would understand what you mean when you say "I want to spice up my vocals" would only mean that "I understand you want to improve the vocals somehow". That's all I can understand from what you're saying.

So, give us examples.

zoco
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby zoco » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:26 pm

JamesPeters wrote:I will assume in this post that you're not trolling. In that case, you're not as experienced as you claim whether you realize it or not.

Don't be embarrassed to admit your limitations, and your lack of experience.

I am not embarrassed. I know what compressor can do and it is one off the regular things i use. Still i am looking for something else. There are more ways then compressor to get more action or spice (or whatever the good word is) to sound. Compression is not the only answer. I search for those kind of tricks especially for vocals. Those kind off tips with same definitions already exist more then enough but for windows and Apple, and now i am looking for the linux ones. Nothing more, nothing less.
It is not meant insulting, but perhaps there are some limitations in knowledge among some others. Perhaps there are some other definitions which i could use but not have available right now, but it looks like some can not answer about something you have no knowledge about and therefore do not understand the question.
The definitions "spice" or "action" are not that hard with some imagination. Think about what you would need to turn a rather regular western popsong some more into southern-american rumba/salsa/latin style. Perhaps that is not totally clear but it al least must give some direction what to think about. If that in my opinion obvious interpretation doesn't clear at least some then i give up to get the answers i am looking for.

ufug wrote:I agree it is hard to interpret what you want to do, but I understand it is challenging to put subtle concepts like this into words and have everyone understand the same thing. I wish people wouldn't be so easily frustrated by this challenge.

That is my wish too. Would be nice if people keep taking it seriously and not naming it stupid words.

Death wrote:But 'spicing up' feels much more subjective to me and everyone else here apparently. But maybe that just depends which music scenes you're in tune with, so it makes more sense to you.

If i look at what i find searching the internet and youtube for these exact words it seem a rather common definition as i find many, but for windows and apple. If i literally translate it into my language this still is a common definition for it which everyone uses and understands.
So i really do not know how i should name it otherwise and i tried to explain it rather decent. No "april's fool" or "trolling" behind it so i do not like it at all if I get that kind of responses. Those who can not follow it can ask decent or simply be at least some more restraint but have no need at all to react that offensive. Call it attitude or what you want i do not care, but that is what i stand for in such situation.

I thank you ufug, Death and JamesPeters and other serious people reacting for your reactions and read them seriously. Perhaps i will come back on them some later.
Relevant reactions will still be appreciated.
Last edited by zoco on Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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raboof
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby raboof » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:39 pm

zoco wrote:
ufug wrote:I wish people wouldn't be so easily frustrated by this challenge.

That is my wish too.


Let's try that going forward :D.

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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby zoco » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:40 pm

raboof wrote:
zoco wrote:
ufug wrote:I wish people wouldn't be so easily frustrated by this challenge.

That is my wish too.


Let's try that going forward :D.

I do and did nothing else. I hope everyone joins. Would be nice if people keep taking it seriously and not naming it stupid words.
Last edited by zoco on Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JamesPeters
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby JamesPeters » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:41 pm

zoco wrote:Compression is not the only answer.


Of course. I didn't mean to say that it was the only answer.

zoco wrote:I search for those kind of tricks especially for vocals. Those kind off tips with same definitions already exist more then enough but for windows and Apple, and now i am looking for the linux ones. Nothing more, nothing less.


The same basic plugins exist for all operating systems, so the most important "tips and tricks" should apply to DAWs of all operating systems. You'll find differences among the plugins (an EQ in Reaper for instance won't be identical to an EQ in Cubase), but they can all perform the same basic tasks.

If you're looking for suggestions about certain plugins that don't exist in Linux (or that you're not aware of), mention the sort of plugin that's being used in the examples that you've seen. Maybe someone will be able to point you in the right direction, or provide an alternate plugin (or production method).

zoco wrote:The definitions "spice" or "action" are not that hard with some imagination. Think about what you would need to turn a rather regular western popsong some more into southern-american rumba/salsa/latin style. Perhaps that is not totally clear but it al least must give some direction what to think about.


Other than singing the part differently (which is the first thing that comes to mind, because it's the easiest way of doing this), what I would imagine involves changing the timing and inflections (and possibly also the key/tuning) of the vocals. That's more than any single plugin will do. That's a lot of work. But maybe you don't mean that. You'll need to provide examples or I can't understand what you mean.

By the way: if someone said to me "these vocals need more spice" (or "action") about a certain vocal track: I would *not* assume it needs to sound more like a different style of music. That would be the last thing I'd think. If that person were to say that the song itself needed more "spice" or something...I might assume the feel of the song needs to be changed, therefore maybe its style needs to be changed (including the vocals). So the words "spice" and "action" are not universal, not even close.
Last edited by JamesPeters on Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rghvdberg
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby rghvdberg » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:48 pm

Still no example.

Lol

zoco
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby zoco » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:56 pm

JamesPeters wrote:The same basic plugins exist for all operating systems, so the most important "tips and tricks" should apply to DAWs of all operating systems. You'll find differences among the plugins (an EQ in Reaper for instance won't be identical to an EQ in Cubase), but they can all perform the same basic tasks.
If you're looking for suggestions about certain plugins that don't exist in Linux (or that you're not aware of), mention the sort of plugin that's being used in the examples that you've seen. Maybe someone will be able to point you in the right direction, or provide an alternate plugin (or production method).

I hope i was clear, but it seems not. I am not looking for the basic plugins if you mean by them the compressor/reverb/equalizer/deesser and other basic ones. Making vocals sound good is not my question as it is not a problem to me. Can always become better of course.
Although i already tried a lot without the result i want, with these basic ones i still can experiment some more to reach what i want.
I am looking for a trick beyond the basics. Like for instance something like what transient designer sometimes can do with instruments. Am i clear? Or do i need to explain some more?

JamesPeters wrote:Other than singing the part differently (which is the first thing that comes to mind, because it's the easiest way of doing this), what I would imagine involves changing the timing and inflections (and possibly also the key/tuning) of the vocals. That's more than any single plugin will do. That's a lot of work. But maybe you don't mean that.


THAT sounds exactly spot on as what i am looking for. Timing. Inflections. Tuning. No need for extensive adaptation with a long list of plugins, but only 3-5% with a simple trick with one or two plugins. As is done a lot on instruments and samples, but harder to do on vocals.

JamesPeters wrote:You'll need to provide examples or I can't understand what you mean.

If you wish i will look for it for you as soon as get to it. It is not easy to find something similar as i want to do. As far as i know hardly any singer or band has done what i want. Or did it much more which does not cover my question. I do not want to go from hard metal to lovely ballad as some did singing again. And covers are not the same as vocals being re-used.

zoco
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby zoco » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:38 pm

JamesPeters wrote:Other than singing the part differently (which is the first thing that comes to mind, because it's the easiest way of doing this), what I would imagine involves changing the timing and inflections (and possibly also the key/tuning) of the vocals. That's more than any single plugin will do. That's a lot of work. But maybe you don't mean that.


THAT was exactly spot on. This gave me enough direction to thought up and also find several options to try. Now i can move on with it.
Many thanks JamesPeters for your help.

Now i need to go to work. Gladly the last night shift this week.

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JamesPeters
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby JamesPeters » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:44 pm

I'm glad to help, although I wish I could've been more specific.

It's less about plugins at this point, I'm guessing, especially if you need to change the timing of the parts. Different DAWs work differently with their editing but I guess you can look for things like "transient detection" and splitting (such as in Reaper). It might be similar to how people work with drum loops, chopping them up and time-stretching etc., so that's another thing to consider when you're looking for videos.

As for something like a "transient designer" specifically, I'm not exactly sure if we're talking about the same thing. I have some plugins which are more specific to transients (making them more pronounced or more subtle), which might be part of what you want to do. Anyway a compressor would help with this sort of thing; you'd just need the right settings. The "transient processor" or "transient shaper" plugins that I have are basically compressors with very specific settings. If you have a compressor that works quickly enough (especially if it has "lookahead"), you may not need a plugin that's very specifically aimed at transients. Anyway if you use Reaper search for "transient" in the FX browser and you'll find a couple plugins included. There's also the JS plugin version of "Transpire" here:

https://sonic.supermaailma.net/plugins

Those aren't Linux VST plugins. They're Windows/Mac VST. But the JSFX versions work in Reaper in Linux (as well as Mac/PC) since JS is a format that's OS-unaware (Reaper compiles the plugin as it loads it, compiling specifically to the OS it's in).

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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby rghvdberg » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:36 am

I'm working on a plugin that might be of use for you. (Linux lv2/vst)
https://github.com/rghvdberg/ninjas2
It's a sample slicer.
  • Load up your vocals as a sample in the plugin.
  • Slice it up, you can auto slice the sample in even parts, snap the slices to onsets , or manually drag the slice boundaries.
  • Each slice is triggered by a midi note. Starting at midi note 60 (c4)
  • Each slice can have several 'playmodes':
    • forward
    • reverse
    • loop
    • reverse loop
  • Each slice as a simple ADSR
  • Each slice can be pitched by using pitchbend ( +/- 1 octave)
  • Mouse Scroll wheel zooms in and out the waveform (at the sample where you are pointing too).
  • Middle mouse button (press the mouse wheel) let's you drag the waveform
  • Left click selects slice to be edited.

    You can save 16 programs or states, haven't really decided on the name yet.
  • Each statesholds the number of slices etc for the current loaded sample.
  • Shift click on a state button stores the current 'state' in that slot.
  • A green border on a state button indicates that it holds a state,otherwise it's the default state (1 slice, single shot fwd).

Image

It's not quite ready yet but I hope I can release it 15th of April.
  • I like bullet lists

rghvdberg
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby rghvdberg » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:55 am

Maybe I should rename the plugin to Spice-o-matic 2000

Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby tavasti » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:14 am

rghvdberg wrote:I'm working on a plugin that might be of use for you. (Linux lv2/vst)
https://github.com/rghvdberg/ninjas2
It's a sample slicer.

Looks interesting, hopefully you get it finished soon!
Linux veteran & Novice musician

Hear my music at https://audiu.net/users/tawaste

zoco
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby zoco » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:04 pm

rghvdberg wrote:I'm working on a plugin that might be of use for you. (Linux lv2/vst)
https://github.com/rghvdberg/ninjas2
It's a sample slicer.

Looks very interesting. I now do that otherwise. Hope your plugin can make that be done quicker, and if so then for sure i am interested.

Now the biggest unwanted joke of all. Seems i already have two plugins named "spice" and by quick try they at least seem to do what i was asking for.
Still i will search for more answers. I want to find some more options to get this done.

These names in context to this communication about this word immediately brought me the next question. How does one come with the idea to name his plugin after some strange and unknown definition like "spice". :lol:

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Michael Willis
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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby Michael Willis » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:48 pm

zoco wrote: some strange and unknown definition like "spice". :lol:

Careful meddling in such matters. Those who control the spice melange control the universe.

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Re: Spicing up existing vocals

Postby rghvdberg » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:10 pm

http://www.ploytec.com/aroma/
Image

you couldn't make it up


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