Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

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wolftune
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Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby wolftune » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:57 am

So, the factory presets in Guitarix are full of ones that (A) are totally different output levels from preset to preset and (B) often are many orders of magnitude louder than the input signal. That's totally insane. So, the input to Guitarix is going to be generally a reasonable level, so amplifying it by such extreme degree means the presets are dangerous to ears and equipment and basically unusable, and the factory presets aren't changeable in the UI.

I don't understand how this came to be, and bad presets give new users a bad first impression…

We need a totally revamped and improved set of Guitarix presets, if you ask me.
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ssj71
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby ssj71 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:52 pm

1st some possible explanations:
As for (B) it is an amplifier simulator, opposed to an effects rack like rakarrack, so I'd expect some gain. Realistically, everyone already has their guitar hooked to a preamp in their interface, but not all pres are very good.
I know the preset format changed at least once for guitarix (I think recently too) so that makes it difficult to collect them.

I agree 100% that presets are typically the first impressions of any audio software, and nearly all linux audio projects could use better and more presets. How do we get them though? Perhaps just a big button on each project site that says "submit your preset?" Or even built into the software ("submit preset to guitarix team")?

I believe the mod project is basically doing the latter.
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby wolftune » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 pm

I understand *some* gain, but:

The two zettberlin factory presets differ by nearly 30dB in their output with the same signal! COMPLETELY INSANE! You know how much 30dB is?? So, you adjust the quiet one to be *audible* and then switch to the other, it's completely speaker blow-out, go-deaf…

The autoandimat lead-thin preset takes a -20dB input signal and boost it to clipping level 4dB+ over the 0! Totally awful!

The StudioDave set are actually reasonable, within the overall range of the input

The JP ones aren't as good on this but are at least not insane.

Really, the crazy ones should be removed. Better NO presets than have those.
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glowrak guy
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby glowrak guy » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:11 am

Wolftune has it right. Keep the StudioDave set, and get some other good ones in the release.

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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby tramp » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:01 am

wolftune wrote:So, the input to Guitarix is going to be generally a reasonable level, so amplifying it by such extreme degree means the presets are dangerous to ears and equipment and basically unusable, and the factory presets aren't changeable in the UI.


Guitarix is a Tube Amplifier simulation. You may have notice that the default setting is more then moderate. But, as a Amplifier, truly it can boost your input signal over more orders of magnitude.
Those Factory presets are mean to show, what you can do with guitarix, and boost the input signal is part of this.
Indeed, you cant edit the factory presets, but you could save your changes into your own preset bank. Edit the factory presets direct will require root rights, as they are installed in /usr/...

wolftune wrote:We need a totally revamped and improved set of Guitarix presets, if you ask me.


You are welcome to submit your contribution.

ssj71 wrote:I know the preset format changed at least once for guitarix (I think recently too) so that makes it difficult to collect them.

It changed one time, and guitarix include a converter from the old to the new preset format.
There is no difficult in collecting them, we just simply didn't receive any more then you find in the factory sets.
ssj71 wrote:Perhaps just a big button on each project site that says "submit your preset?" Or even built into the software ("submit preset to guitarix team")?

I believe the mod project is basically doing the latter.


The MOD is a commercial Project, I didn't mean it negative here, just the point is, to offer such a service, you need a fast server and web-space, and that needs to be paid. Including this "Submit feature" will be the easy part.
Otherwise, we have a section in our forum to share presets.
wolftune wrote:The autoandimat lead-thin preset takes a -20dB input signal and boost it to clipping level 4dB+ over the 0! Totally awful!


Keep in mind to leave enough Headroom for guitarix amplification, turn down your sound-card amplifier in order to use guitarix.
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby wolftune » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:41 am

tramp wrote:Those Factory presets are mean to show, what you can do with guitarix, and boost the input signal is part of this.


It is totally inappropriate to have a 20dB+ boost in a preset. It's not at all something we need demonstrated by a preset, especially given no indication that a preset would do such a thing.

wolftune wrote:We need a totally revamped and improved set of Guitarix presets, if you ask me.


You are welcome to submit your contribution.


My first contribution is the suggestion to *remove* or fix the awful presets that create such extreme signal level changes. The presets are a great improvement with those simply deleted. I'm happy to later submit other presets, but we do not need replacements in order to remove something that has a *negative* effect currently.

wolftune wrote:The autoandimat lead-thin preset takes a -20dB input signal and boost it to clipping level 4dB+ over the 0! Totally awful!


Keep in mind to leave enough Headroom for guitarix amplification, turn down your sound-card amplifier in order to use guitarix.


That's completely irrelevant. I'm talking about an input signal that is very low and modest and works well with some presets where a different preset goes over 0 in Guitarix's own master output. It's also horrendous to have users of the software go to try some presets and suddenly have extreme level changes between presets — there's no warning at all, no way to anticipate this. It's absurd to say that this is a problem of the user leaving headroom in their soundcard.

The first step to better settings is to change or delete all the presets that are so poorly designed. All the presets should be within some reasonable range of one another, maybe 10dB at most of variance between presets (to throw out a number that's not insane). It's a very bad user experience to explore the presets and have such insane level changes from preset to preset.
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby tramp » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:11 am

As I said, this part is completely leave to user contributions, that means, if you wont that it happen, do it, contribute, send us your proposal of factory settings to replace the old set.

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wolftune
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby wolftune » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:14 am

I will share new settings when I have time. In the mean time, please REMOVE or fix the bad ones. It will be better with LESS presets than with the current set. Replacements aren't needed to remove broken ones.
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby tramp » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:52 am

I will do when we receive better ones/replacements.
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falkTX
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby falkTX » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:51 am

I have to say I completely agree with wolftune here.

tramp wrote:I will do when we receive better ones/replacements.

wolftune wrote:please REMOVE or fix the bad ones. It will be better with LESS presets than with the current set. Replacements aren't needed to remove broken ones.


Broken presets make a software look broken.

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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby tramp » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:18 am

falkTX wrote:I have to say I completely agree with wolftune here.

tramp wrote:I will do when we receive better ones/replacements.

wolftune wrote:please REMOVE or fix the bad ones. It will be better with LESS presets than with the current set. Replacements aren't needed to remove broken ones.


Broken presets make a software look broken.


Not a single preset is "broken", just unconventional to wolftune.
That are presets as they are used by users, contributed by users.
As I said, this part completely depend on users contribution, and I wouldn't change that. No contribution means no new presets. Contribute a new set, and they will included, maybe replace the current set. period.
Not a single preset is included by guitarix developers, except some plugin presets.
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby wolftune » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:45 pm

I could add 100 new presets and that wouldn't solve the problem with existing presets having extreme level changes. It would make them more obscure, but you'd still have the awful result of browsing along and all of a sudden there's a 20+dB gain compared to other presets.

Getting new presets is a nice goal, but it's basically artificial to tie that goal to the goal of fixing the insane levels that current presets have. So let's be clear: if I send some new ones, you'll agree to remove the bad ones? More specifically, would you accept a submission where I send you presets that match the existing ones but where the levels have been adjusted so that they aren't so crazy variable in output level, and you'll not just add them but you'll replace the existing bad ones with my submission? I'm not happy with "maybe replace" because the only thing that will solve the problem is definitely changing or removing the existing problem presets. I am willing to help with it though.
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glowrak guy
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby glowrak guy » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:26 am

tramp wrote:Not a single preset is "broken", just unconventional to wolftune.

It is a convention among plugin developers to fix, remove, or at least include
a warning in the name of a preset, or folder of similar presets, when people
report such db issues. It's bad form to widen a stubborn streak, instead
of implementing one of several simple solutions. Reputation has value.
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby tramp » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:46 am

wolftune wrote:So let's be clear: if I send some new ones, you'll agree to remove the bad ones? More specifically, would you accept a submission where I send you presets that match the existing ones but where the levels have been adjusted so that they aren't so crazy variable in output level, and you'll not just add them but you'll replace the existing bad ones with my submission?

Yes. If you give a detailed request for which presets you like to see removed along with your preset bank (or a patch, if possible).

One thing, we can only accept presets for factory settings without LV2/Ladspa plugins involved. That means not only without those in the effect chain, that means without any LV2/Ladspa plug loaded into the Effect Toolbox on the left side. Please un-select all in the Ladspa/Lv2 browser, before create/save the presets.
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Re: Why Guitarix factory presets so awful and loud??

Postby wolftune » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:53 am

Thanks for the clarification! I'll try to find time to work on this soon. Thanks again for all your great work on the software. Presets are the only real rough spot at this point.
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