3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

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merlyn
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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby merlyn » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:26 pm

An simple solution would be to use 'hibernate' instead of 'shutdown'.

The screenshot called 'canvas3a.png' doesn't look like a system that has just been rebooted. Where did two JACK keyboards, QMidiArp and the rest of it come from?

jonetsu
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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby jonetsu » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:57 pm

Count wrote:
jonetsu wrote: 2) If you think that a text file can modify itself on its own ...

I was a Windows pc user for many years, and yes they can and do!


Well, Microsoft is a highly innovative company, well funded, with lots of manpower. Unfortunately that feature is not found on Linux systems. 8)

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:58 pm

merlyn wrote:An simple solution would be to use 'hibernate' instead of 'shutdown'.

The screenshot called 'canvas3a.png' doesn't look like a system that has just been rebooted. Where did two JACK keyboards, QMidiArp and the rest of it come from?


They came up on boot as I had set KDE to 'restore from last sesion'. It has grabbed the FastTrack Midi ports but not the 8 audio I/Os.

There is Hibernate yes - but that does come with its own inherent problems, again, is dependent on an amorphous system saved state. I used hybernate before when I was first using KXStudio for this setup on a laptop - but one bad crash and you can be left starting the whole system again from scratch. That's what happened at one gig when I used the laptop, it had sat in hibernate perfectly well, but for some reason (probably overheating at the venue) before we started the laptop crashed and when it booted it had no hibernation state, it just gave me a fresh blank desktop session. There was not enough time to set things up again so I canned the laptop for that gig.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby merlyn » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:04 pm

Count wrote: ... I had set KDE to 'restore from last sesion'

It looks like that doesn't work with Cadence. One difference between the before and after screenshots is that the ALSA audio bridge isn't started after a reboot. That explains why your browser wasn't working.

To fix Bristol there is a thread here :

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14598&p=68508&hilit=bristol+claudia#p68891

If you use an app that remembers JACK connections, like Claudia or Non Session Manager then you won't need 'restore from last session'.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:01 pm

sysrqer wrote:
Count wrote:So the latency of Neon will sort itself out and not be an issue if the environment is set right? I've not messed with kernels as yet...?
So the process would be

1) Install KDE Neon from the ISO as normal
2) Once installed then add the KXStudio Repo and install what I want/need
3) Then go with that? Or are there more tweaks to be done with kernel etc?

All been gold info so far, thanks :)


Yes, there's shouldn't be any reason why it wouldn't work for you with a bit of simple tweaking. Those steps should more or less be all you need to do, I think kxstudio has a package called 'kxstudio-default-settings' or something that will set most things up for audio. You can install a better kernel by installing 'linux-lowlatency'. You should be good to go after that.

And no worries, glad to help.


Okay, so I'm just in the proccesss of modifying a fresh Neon install. :)

* Installed the full Neon (User) OS and desktop as default
* Have added the KXStudio repos, and have added the KX default settings from there (starting to get to the edge of my Linux know-how!) - it has added to tree menu to Multimedia, though some apps wont launch, I have readded them individually and they seem to work fine.
* I'm guessing I don't need any of the KXStudio desktop as I'm on Neon?

Next Steps:

* I have to create an audio user group to be added to??? Not entirely sure on this one... just reading atm...!
* Make sure Jack/ALSA/MIDI etc is setup correctly and everything is set up on boot

GOOD NEWS:
* So far when I launch Claudia the 8 Channel audio I/O of the Ultra seems to be there on boot every time

BAD NEWS:
* Jack server is not started on boot, have to do that manually atm...
* I can't see a system output - but I believe this is related to the permissions for the audio user group, so when I have that set up correctly I should then have access to a true hardware audio output?
* I've been unable to find a precise update method for he kernel - I tried installing Linux low latency but received package not found - I wonder if that was because I did not have the repos loaded properly, or that kernel is not there? Still reading up on this...

====

Taken me a little bit beyond my comfort zone, but that's not a bad thing!

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby jonetsu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:12 pm

Count wrote: * Jack server is not started on boot, have to do that manually atm...


What are you using to have firefox (youtube for instance) and vlc/mpv and such playing audio transparently w/o having to think about it ?

A jack sink for pulse audio ? If so, then as I described previously jackd will be started from a simple text file (that will not be modified behind your back, unless some other app insists on it when not finding a jackd running at time of launch - but then jackd will be running isn't it), that file being ~/.jackdrc

And that's pretty much it. No hassle. I'm not preferring that method because I'm lazy, as I've built Linux systems from scratch at work and at home, but rather just because when I sit to make music that's what I do, making music. Not fixing up the machine. So I like simple solutions and this is why I've waited so long to run Windows plugins: there were way toooo many people spending time on trying to making it work with workarounds, more troubleshootings, and all that. So when I decided to use Windows VSTs I've chosen the simplest solution: linvst with wine staging. (caveat: I do not have a backlog of Windows VSTs to absolutely try to run under Linux).

Same principle of simpleness and of getting to do what the machine is meant to do for that purpose: creating music. 8) A well-supported general distro such as Xubuntu, a low latency kernel immediately found in the Ubuntu repo and quickly installed, A couple of little tuning here and there, add the user to the audio group, etc... Then wine staging, linvst, all the audio apps and plugins (caveat: no need of other repositories in my case, all is provided in the Ubuntu repo) and off to create music.

Simpleness can make a long way.

Count
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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:25 pm

jonetsu wrote:
Count wrote: * Jack server is not started on boot, have to do that manually atm...


What are you using to have firefox (youtube for instance) and vlc/mpv and such playing audio transparently w/o having to think about it ?

A jack sink for pulse audio ? If so, then as I described previously jackd will be started from a simple text file (that will not be modified behind your back, unless some other app insists on it when not finding a jackd running at time of launch - but then jackd will be running isn't it), that file being ~/.jackdrc


I've still yet to look into this... just started again on a fresh system...

jonetsu wrote:Same principle of simpleness and of getting to do what the machine is meant to do for that purpose: creating music. 8) A well-supported general distro such as Xubuntu, a low latency kernel immediately found in the Ubuntu repo and quickly installed, A couple of little tuning here and there, add the user to the audio group, etc... Then wine staging, linvst, all the audio apps and plugins (caveat: no need of other repositories in my case, all is provided in the Ubuntu repo) and off to create music.

Simpleness can make a long way.


I have just installed NEON to make a fresh start :)

And am in the process of setting up and tuning up :)

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby jonetsu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:27 pm

Count wrote: I have just installed NEON to make a fresh start :) And am in the process of setting up and tuning up :)


Yes, obviously :mrgreen: Although the point I'm trying to make is that, unless you want to actually fiddle with the Linux system (and learn things doing so, which is very good, nothing against that at all !) things do not have to be so complicated setting up a Linux system to do music. Like re-instaling KDE to get things going would be by my gate, totally off promises. No way will I re-install KDE to get music creation working. 8) And never did by the way.

Count
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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:38 pm

jonetsu wrote:
Count wrote: I have just installed NEON to make a fresh start :) And am in the process of setting up and tuning up :)


Yes, obviously :mrgreen: Although the point I'm trying to make is that, unless you want to actually fiddle with the Linux system (and learn things doing so, which is very good, nothing against that at all !) things do not have to be so complicated setting up a Linux system to do music. Like re-instaling KDE to get things going would be by my gate, totally off promises. No way will I re-install KDE to get music creation working. 8) And never did by the way.


Oh I definitely agree about the simplicity, yes! At the end of the day it's a simple matter of something making a sound so I can make some music with it - it wont do it for me! :)

Sure, but my main problem is that there are fundamental issues stopping me from using the basic tools, as after a reboot I have to spend time setting the system back up as I like it.

You forget - I'm an ex Windows user, from the days when it was just as easy, and better, to reinstall Windows every 6 months than to continually maintain and clean with defrag/ delete temp/ run spybot/ccleaner etc!

Reinstalling an OS is nothing lol! :) These days it's so easy with Linux OS installers, reinstall an OS like changing a shirt!

Tinkering under the hood of Linux, not something I've done really - with Linux Mint I've been spoiled - no need to even update. Back on Mint 12 I ran a fresh install for over 12 months on one desktop session, no hibernate, just sleep, no updates. That was beautiful simple computing!

I used to know my way around the engine room of Windows XP pretty well. I don't mind fiddling - but the thing about Linux over Windows is the ability to really customize and set the system as you want it.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby sysrqer » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:43 pm

Count wrote:* I'm guessing I don't need any of the KXStudio desktop as I'm on Neon?

Yes, don't install that.

Count wrote:Next Steps:

* I have to create an audio user group to be added to??? Not entirely sure on this one... just reading atm...!
* Make sure Jack/ALSA/MIDI etc is setup correctly and everything is set up on boot

I don't think you should need to do that, the default-settings package should have done that as far as I remember. You can check if you type 'groups' in to a terminal. If it lists audio then you are in the group.
The second point is a combination of setting the start on boot option in cadence (choose the claudia session option) and setting up claudia if that's what you want to use. Get a studio set up how you want and then it should all load up when you reboot. In claudia you can also set up rooms which function a lot like you talked about with activities, they are sort of sub studios with their own routing and they can be turned on and off so if you combine that with window rules then you can do pretty much everything you asked for I think, and it means it's not an all or nothing thing, you can have all your apps and routing, then fire up the guitar amp sim when you need it with all fancy routing and then close it when you're finished. Everything else remains and you can save a bit of cpu by only using things when you need them. I think it will work better for audio stuff than suspending activities.

Count wrote:GOOD NEWS:
* So far when I launch Claudia the 8 Channel audio I/O of the Ultra seems to be there on boot every time

That's an improvement then!

Count wrote:BAD NEWS:
* Jack server is not started on boot, have to do that manually atm...

I addressed that above. Should be simple to fix.

Count wrote:* I can't see a system output - but I believe this is related to the permissions for the audio user group, so when I have that set up correctly I should then have access to a true hardware audio output?

Can you post a screenshot of catia when you have jack running? Where are things routed to if not the system out?

Count wrote:* I've been unable to find a precise update method for he kernel - I tried installing Linux low latency but received package not found - I wonder if that was because I did not have the repos loaded properly, or that kernel is not there? Still reading up on this...

Code: Select all

sudo apt install linux-lowlatency

should find it and install it.

Count wrote:Taken me a little bit beyond my comfort zone, but that's not a bad thing!

It's all good, you're learning and you're nearly there!

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:20 pm

sysrqer wrote:I don't think you should need to do that, the default-settings package should have done that as far as I remember. You can check if you type 'groups' in to a terminal. If it lists audio then you are in the group.
The second point is a combination of setting the start on boot option in cadence (choose the claudia session option) and setting up claudia if that's what you want to use. Get a studio set up how you want and then it should all load up when you reboot. In claudia you can also set up rooms which function a lot like you talked about with activities, they are sort of sub studios with their own routing and they can be turned on and off so if you combine that with window rules then you can do pretty much everything you asked for I think, and it means it's not an all or nothing thing, you can have all your apps and routing, then fire up the guitar amp sim when you need it with all fancy routing and then close it when you're finished. Everything else remains and you can save a bit of cpu by only using things when you need them. I think it will work better for audio stuff than suspending activities.


Yeah I guess this is where my next learning area is, which is necessary I think! Get under the hood of Linux a bit more :)

Bit of another learning curve, only just started using multiple desktops for KXStudio, and been using Activities for little over a couple of days or so!

Am thinking the same way as you - I think as my starting approach was fairly scatter-gun, and I think I was duplicating and mixing tasks.

So If I start simpler - get the desktop and the apps set as I want/need, then within that basic scenario of desktops/activities, I can use the studios/rooms to set up a basic in-out with a mixer and one or two effects.

Then if I can run that painlessly, almost headless, it should then just be a simple process of building on top.

The ultimate aim is to learn this 'system' from the ground up, in pieces. Then build multiple systems.

Desktop PC - Fully functioning AV for recording and performance
Laptop - For taking on the road and playing live - stripped back to only what I need
RaspberryPi modules - any number of them for separate headless guitar or keyboard/synth effects

So once I bottom this out I should be bale to apply it :)

sysrqer wrote:
Count wrote:GOOD NEWS:
* So far when I launch Claudia the 8 Channel audio I/O of the Ultra seems to be there on boot every time


That's an improvement then!


sysrqer wrote:
Count wrote:BAD NEWS:
* Jack server is not started on boot, have to do that manually atm...

I addressed that above. Should be simple to fix.


That does seem to be now running each time on start up as per the settings, as well as the UltraUSB as the default HW, MIDI,

Although Pulse isn't running.

sysrqer wrote:
Count wrote:* I can't see a system output - but I believe this is related to the permissions for the audio user group, so when I have that set up correctly I should then have access to a true hardware audio output?

Can you post a screenshot of catia when you have jack running? Where are things routed to if not the system out?


Even though Jack settings are being saved, and the Ultra is there - I am seeing different things at different boots...

Still no system out, so it seems like it has merged all 8 I/Os of the FastTrack Ultra into 1

I will do a bit more testing and try and get some screen shots - I also have a Scarlett interface - I wonder if I am suffering at some level hardware indiosynchronicities.

sysrqer wrote:
Count wrote:* I've been unable to find a precise update method for he kernel - I tried installing Linux low latency but received package not found - I wonder if that was because I did not have the repos loaded properly, or that kernel is not there? Still reading up on this...

Code: Select all

sudo apt install linux-lowlatency

should find it and install it.


That's what I tried - unable to find it. I'm still reading up about that at some Ubuntu forums... there is another...

Liquorix - reading about that and an updated Ubuntu kernel...
sysrqer wrote:
Count wrote:Taken me a little bit beyond my comfort zone, but that's not a bad thing!

It's all good, you're learning and you're nearly there!


Thank you! I can take the pain in the name of learning!

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby sysrqer » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:52 am

Liquorix is good, I use it and sounds like it might be easier for you.

For pulseaudio you need to select the boot option in cadence. If you have done that already then make sure you have the pulseaudio jack module installed.

I'm not sure what to think about the outputs problem. I would definitely try the Scarlett, I also have one and it is always solid works well. You can set the in out number in cadence but it should work automatically. Trying the liquorix kernel might help with this, perhaps the card is not supported with the kernel version you currently have.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby merlyn » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:45 am

Before you install anything with apt it's recommended to update the package index with

Code: Select all

sudo apt update

Update, then try

Code: Select all

sudo apt install linux-lowlatency
again.

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Count » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:07 pm

merlyn wrote:Before you install anything with apt it's recommended to update the package index with

Code: Select all

sudo apt update

Update, then try

Code: Select all

sudo apt install linux-lowlatency
again.


I did try all that and got could not be found.

However I didnt try again after reading that that low latency kernel was an out of date kernel anyway...

Having issues I think caused by the order I did things in? Lots of apps wont work, wont reinstall, some of the meta-packages seem to conflict in some ways?

First time I'v gone this far with a distro!

So... I'm going to blank it and start again with a bit more of an idea of what I am doing... :)

be back soon! :)

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Re: 3 Steps Forward 2 Back: Progress and Frustrations with fundamental DE issues

Postby Michael Willis » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:06 pm

Count wrote:First time I'v gone this far with a distro!

So... I'm going to blank it and start again with a bit more of an idea of what I am doing... :)

be back soon! :)

Best of luck! I commend your tenacity, and I have confidence that it will work out better now that you have more experience.


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