Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Official support for the KXStudio Linux distribution and applications.
More info at http://kxstudio.linuxaudio.org/

Moderators: falkTX, khz, MattKingUSA

What should the focus be on?

Finish KDE5/Neon based ISO and make it as nice experience as possible.
16
33%
Skip the ISO, instead document and fix general issues with most common desktops
33
67%
 
Total votes: 49

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falkTX
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Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby falkTX » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:41 am

Hey everyone.
Ubuntu 18.04 has been released 2 months ago, and there is no KXStudio ISO release yet, as you might have noticed.
It is not lacking of will to do it, but rather waiting for Neon to be ready for 18.04 (Wine-staging supports 18.04 now though)

Perhaps using regular Kubuntu packages would be enough, but I had bad experiences with it before.
The stability of the packages is nice (there is almost never an update, so we only need to patch things once). But new things get added and fixed in new releases for which we have to use kubuntu-backports, which is not the most stable thing - compared to Neon which updates often but still somehow manages to keep things rather stable.

One thing I been noticing, is users on non-KDE desktops having difficulties to get things setup properly. Specially when it comes to pulseaudio getting in the way...
Focusing on a single desktop (KDE), means other ones get left behind.
I always hoped someone would step up and make everything work for those cases, but I don't think it will happen.
One thing I have learned through making opensource software is: if you want to see something done, better just do it yourself.

I know I cannot do it all, and trying to support more than 1 desktop means none will have the really right user experience.
Plus limiting users to a single desktop has never been something I liked much.

My point of this post is to gather user opinions.
Does not mean a decision will be made right away, or at all.

houston4444
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby houston4444 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:02 am

I vote for "finish the ISO".
I precise that Neon + KxStudio packages is the system that I use now.
KDE is very nice simple and light now, I don't want to enter in a stupid DE battle, but I think having a KDE based distribution is the better experience we could offer, also it take sense to give it out of the box.

stanlea
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby stanlea » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:04 am

In my view, solid repositories are more needed than an ISO. If I understand well, Ubuntu is the easiest distro for supporting KXstudio, that's already a restrictive thing : using Debian, Arch, and others is possible but requires some tweaking, and at least a forum like this one to solve issues. You have to clearly state what is the most stable for you. If you say "I can do wonders, but only in the restricted area of Neon", it's ok because YOU make things happen. And, on my side, I'll use it. But maybe the users basis will decrease, and it's not what we want. Now that Unity is left away, we have to choose between KDE, Gnome, Mate, Enlightenment and some others : if you can set up things working without hassle in these ones, I think it's better for the community.

Concerning the documentation, I believe in collaborative working, but with a strong governance : give topics, and ask who wants to take writing jobs.

rghvdberg
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby rghvdberg » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:52 am

Since I've never used the ISO , I vote for repo+docs.

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lilith
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby lilith » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:06 am

I voted for the repos with flexible Desktop. I used the Iso until last year, but since April I have Debian with XFCE running. With some help it was straight forward to install the repositories. Everything works well except of some stability problems with the Debian RT kernel. The Iso was also very stable and I never had any problem with it.
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Shupacabras
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby Shupacabras » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:32 pm

Hi Falk

Keeping an ISO image is a lot of work surely, better maintain repositories.
Documentation may be necessary, although the software is quite intuitive

Regards

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protozone
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby protozone » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:03 pm

Wow, I have been hearing so much about the KXstudio repos over the past years I forgot about the ISO.

While you are reading all this stuff from me, I want to say, THANK YOU. Your pro audio work is admirable and a great influence of positivity in the lives and careers of many!

I voted for fixing the distro issues and focusing on documentation, especially on stuff like Carla.
However, I can also understand the appeal of the ISO.

When I used the KXstudio repos, I had best luck when I installed them, and then quickly disabled the repos before my next system updates. Also, I attemped to manually edit the repo entries to be more up to date because I was wary of using really old stuff like from the earlier Ubuntu versions and years.

I know it's kinda hard to keep up with all the distro changes from Debian and Ubuntu upstream. But my attempted philosophy was that since KXstudio has (had?) some stuff more up to date than Ubuntu LTS, use that, do one update to pull in all the parts, and then stop using it so that I wouldn't run into conflicts from Ubuntus repos.

Later on, however, I found that I really only wanted a few specific programs and parts such as Carla. Some programs seem to install better and more up to date just manually off the web via the author(s)'s website(s). So I had better luck on some fresher distro installs just doing that and then only using the KXstudio repos to get specific stuff temporarily too.

But getting back to the .ISO.... maybe that's a better choice. I'm not sure. At least it consolidates all the advantages and is still very viable. AVLINUX and KXstudio are genuine powerhouses. No doubt about that.

I used to use Ubuntu Studio, but I found that I had to weed out stuff that I didn't want. However, as time has gone by, I realize that it taught me a lot and I'm not quitting the Ubuntus entirely. My Xubuntu system with a low-latency kernel turned out to be a great foundation for DAW use without so much bloat.

Aw, I can't make up my mind. sorry. :oops: :lol: I know I get annoying sometimes. Peace.

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sysrqer
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby sysrqer » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:21 pm

This is hard to say. I think Neon is a perfect choice and it's probably better to wait for them to decide it is stable enough to move over to.

I think some context is important here. I think ever since I have been using linux the kxstudio iso has been based on an older release than I would like to use, I mean there was a whole major release it missed. I think jumping on the new one right away isn't a major concern at the moment simply for that reason, an updated release has waited for a while so why not a little bit more.

If there are issues with using the repos in different DEs then having documentation to resolve them seems like a good immediate concern, it's something that will be lasting and worthwhile and seeing as Neon isn't ready yet it would be crazy to doctor something just for the sake of getting it out there. I would say aim for an iso release on the next update and work on documentation for other DEs and using the repo until then, if that's realistic.

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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby Jodax » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:43 pm

Hello, long time KXStudio user and forum lurker. Well, now you have forced me to register to the site and weigh in. :)

I voted for the ISO.

1.) The ISO makes it easy for "new" people to try KXStudio. (i.e. people who normally do not use Debian based linux.) Because growth is what it is about, isn't it? The more people who try and like, the wider the pool of experience becomes, and the stronger the community.

2.) The ISO makes it easy to install a fresh, stable, dedicated system quickly. No tinkering involved. Over the last couple of years, I have had several instances of "things" breaking in KXStudio to the point where a 'quick' reinstall was required. Quick was what I needed, and quick is what I got using the ISO. I prefer Debian to Ubuntu, but when I attempted to run KXStudio on a a Debian version of my system using the repo-packages I ran into all kinds of problems with Cadence and the Debian RT kernel. I immediately went back to the ISO, because I knew it would work and there was going to be less trouble-shooting and wasting of time, precious time, involved. When you are pressed for time, having the ISO is a great thing.

I am not a fan of Ubuntu (for several reasons). I am running several linux machines, but the only ones with Ubuntu on them are running KXStudio installed from the ISO. I tried porting it to other linux flavors over the last couple of years and found that I spent more time trying to get it to work than using it to capture my creative ideas. So, I returned to the ISO and a flavor of Linux and desktop environment that I don't particularly care for.. because it's easy and it works.


My $.02? Concentrate on the ISO, because its easier to focus on one desktop environment than trying to focus on them all and the end result will be better. Do not worry about trying to please everyone. KXStudio is the best option currently available on linux.. you will be afforded a lot of leeway in 'your' decision making. I use it regularly and I absolutely hate Ubuntu and KDE. :D

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thetotalchaos
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby thetotalchaos » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:46 pm

Hi FalkTX
I want to step in to support the new user. Someone who just heard that Linux Audio is a thing, and we have such powerful tools like linux-rt, jack, wine, our own audio plugins like lv2, dssi, etc. On the other hand Apple has out-of-the-box experience, popularity and they doesn't need to be an IT specialist to use their system on full potential. I truly want to see a stable, reliable pre-configured and intuitive Linux based OS, aimed on musicians and audio producers. Something that says "Wow, i didn't know how awesome and usable Linux is for audio." Not to say "This is not working, and i have no idea how to make it work. That is why its free. Lets be professional and use what every professional musician is using".
I had enough hearing the latter quote. I really am. Either way i will be fine. But someone needs to think for the youth!
Best regards, Totalchaos
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby barbouze » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:08 pm

First of all, I'm thankful for your work on maintaining KXStudio AND the repositories AND Cadence,Carla,Catia, Claudia AND the DISTRHO plugins AND the DPF AND many other things that I'm sure have brought you a lot of experience on linux system and development. At the risk of sounding rude (which is not my intent) the downside is that you know so much that you can step in any linux and/or audio project and could bemaybe torn between all of this and stall as there is only 24h hours a day. That's why I have voted for skipping the ISO.
Also, as you said,
I know I cannot do it all, and trying to support more than 1 desktop means none will have the really right user experience.
Plus limiting users to a single desktop has never been something I liked much.

Totally agreeing here.
Also, when a newcomer asks on this forum how to get started with linux audio, one of the most common tip is to "install the KXStudio repositories" if he already has a running system, or try AV Linux which relies greatly on those same repositories. Maybe a closer collaboration between GMaq and you would be fruitful?
To use IT terms, maybe it's time to pivot and focus only on tools development and documentation rather than competing in the saturated linux distributions market?

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khz
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby khz » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:36 am

lilith wrote:I used the Iso until last year, but since April I have Debian with XFCE running. With some help it was straight forward to install the repositories.

Thanks to your help the https://www.sequencer.de/synthesizer/threads/gnu-linux-debian-installieren-linux-audio-workstation-law.140361/ was created. THX!

!vote 4 maintain repositories && documentation
FZ - Does humor belongs in Music?
GNU/LINUX@AUDIO ~ /Wiki $ Howto.Info && GNU/Linux Debian installing >> Linux Audio Workstation LAW
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briandc
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby briandc » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:39 pm

I voted for maintaining docs. I've kind of come to the belief that "we don't need another distro" and what is more valuable (imo) is to maintain and develop the plethera of apps that are already available for linux. There's so much good stuff out there now, I've seen linux audio grow A LOT in recent years and some of what's out there shouldn't get left in the dust by making new stuff and re-inventing the wheel.

Of course, I'm also of the idea that GUI's should be kept as simple as possible in order to keep CPU usage to a minimum and max out on performance... and that's probably not a "popular" choice either, but it's how I see it in the world of linux and music. Simpler is often just simply better. :)


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English Guy
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby English Guy » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:02 pm

I voted against the iso. I went from being a fan to hating KDE and prefer my distro of choice (Debian) with the repos anyway. I would prefer to see more software and updates than an iso I will never use.

The repos are awesome.

Luc
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Re: Skip the ISO and focus on documentation?

Postby Luc » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:24 pm

stanlea wrote:using Debian, Arch, and others is possible but requires some tweaking (...)

I assume you mean falkTX has been doing all the tweaking on his side, because I use vanilla Debian and I hardly have to tweak anything to make KXStudio work hunky-dory fine.

Jodax wrote:(...) but when I attempted to run KXStudio on a a Debian version of my system using the repo-packages I ran into all kinds of problems with Cadence and the Debian RT kernel.

I swear, I have no idea what these people are talking about.

I understand that Linux can be a little bit of a terror for newbies so I understand the importance of a turnkey distro that will relieve the user of many worries and troubles before they run back to hide under Microsoft's apron, but... WHAT are these problems that people are having with the KX repository? Can we solve them?

I think that forcing people to use any one distro or DE goes against the grain of the Linux philosophy. KXStudio should work as an add-on, on as many distros as possible. I don't know how feasible that is, but I think that is the wisest path if possible. It seems that people only really want the ISO because of some perceived problems with other distros. Well, if those problems are fixed, nobody will need the ISO anymore.


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