Why I'm giving up on KXStudio

[paul]

After I started using KXStudio to play live with my bands, most people in the band got themselves an ISO.
Yesterday I went to a friend of a friend of a guy that plays with me, for a birthday, and saw that his old PC also runs KXStudio, indirectly because of me. It made *three degrees* of separation!
All these people know nothing about computers, which surprised me, as I thought KXStudio were still only for geeks. But apparently I was wrong.
(Except some stupid issues, for example that KDE4 on an old PC is not a very smart idea. But it was running.)

So, well, there are many people in Leipzig, Germany, who don't post on this forum, but who thanks to KXStudio make daily a great deal of rock and roll!

[Aleks]

Yes, yes, KXStudio repo's actually spoiled aaaall that "linux geek fun" of downloading a source app,then read the readme file and find out that you have to install something called "dependencies". Then you go to install those, and more often than not, they too have their own dependencies and sometimes it ends up in a vicious circle.

I mean, like, are you kidding me?! Once I tried to install guitarix from source, and it took me A DAY staring into the terminal to see what I have to install next. Well, I succeeded all right, but when I found out here on this forum, when I asked for help, from the man himself, that there is an easier way, I readily went for it. But the real trip was to install linuxsampler, and the list goes on, but the point is that for using music and video apps I had to install whole lot of developing apps that I never actually used.

I also don't like the proper KXStudio, but it's because I don't like the KDE, it's simply not for me, although I don't remember having problems with the internet when I tried it. But nevertheless I consider my system as a KXStudio based system, because I rely heavily on it's repo's, and now, thanks to them, I can rebuild whole of my system in few hours from scratch, if needed.

So, I also join to the list of people that are here to say - thank you, FalkTX!

[Luc]

This thread has been taken way too seriously.

When people say "I'm quitting your product" it's meant as a way to pressure the company responsible for it into amending whatever is perceived as a fault. It's an implied threat: "If you don't fix it, I will take my business elsewhere and your company's profits will dwindle, until you eventually go out of business."

Don't laugh. I am old enough to remember a time when that logic made sense (to some extent) and the argument worked.

It doesn't work at all in this day and age, but it used to be effective enough that it's become part of the world's culture, and it's not going to die completely anytime soon.

Not only it is still very much en vogue, but also a lot of people tend to carry it over to many other situations, including those that do not involve an actual "product" neither a profitable company nor any kind of "business," which is the case with free software. It's just a meaningless, automatic reaction rooted in an outdated culture.

This whole episode is a non-event. It should probably be ignored.

[bhilmers]

It's just a meaningless, automatic reaction rooted in an outdated culture. This whole episode is a non-event. It should probably be ignored.

I couldn't disagree more.

There is a lot of well-deserved hype around KX. It seems to be the default recommendation for any Linux user interested in serious music making, and I've also noticed it being used as bait for Win/Mac users who want to explore FOSS. There are a lot of frustrated Linux users out there looking for a solution to the disaster that is Linux Audio. KX comes closest to managing this nightmare without actually solving it. (I doubt it is solvable.) But when things don't work as expected in the face of all this praise, the shock can drive people to starting threads like this. It's not that ToFue is trying to leverage himself against KX, but he has a need to have is voice heard. And, I'm glad to hear it because it actually highlights the things that KX is doing right. He even gives praise, calling it an "awesome distro" and stating:

...I really do like its environment, package choices, and its overall integration of those packages on an unmodified system.

Can you blame someone for wanting to express their contrary opinion? It's not like he hasn't given KX a shot, he's "had major problems with multiple new, fresh installs of KXStudio..." and probably invested a lot of time trying to get a usable system. And he's not the only one. I've installed KX Studio once a year since it came out. This year was the first time my computer actually booted after installing it. What I saw was impressive, but only because Linux Audio is so horrible. On a fresh KX install I had a few programs crash including Carla and Cadence. I shrugged it off and kept going. But after spending a couple days trying to find a decent workflow I eventually gave up. Let me be clear, this is not necessarily a problem with KX, but something endemic to Linux Audio as a whole.

However, as a hardcore Linux user, I keep following this forum, keep trying new tools, all with the hope that one day I can stop using Windows programs in Wine and do my pro audio work natively in Linux. It's closer than ever, but the bar has been set pretty high by those "other" operating systems.

[Luc]

You disagree with me, but bend over backwards to achieve that. You completely changed the focus of what I said.

You say that KX Studio has flaws. Yes, I suppose it does although I don't really see flaws barring the occasional hiccup that always gets fixed. But that's ok, My Experience Is Not Universal.

And you say that the sound architecture of Linux is awful. Well, yes, everybody knows that.

Behold: I agree with the summary of everything you said; and that's because you changed the focus of the subject.

My focus was rather on how useless and irrelevant the original post was and on the attention that people have been wasting on it.

Rather than stating what everybody already knows (you're the one who did that) or trying to get help, the original poster created a topic to announce to the world that he would no longer grace this community with the privilege of his presence. Ah, ok, he explains why and that part is kind of relevant to some extent, but the reasons pretty much stand in the background of what he decided should be the focus of his expression: he is leaving. Falk has just "lost a customer," is what his angry words convey so clearly.

His first message on the forum is dated Wed Sep 09, 2015. He announced his bitter departure on Sun Sep 20, 2015, eleven days later. That is plenty of time for him to observe the activity here and realize that almost everyone (if not everyone) here is quite happy with KX Studio. It has to be working to all these people! If it doesn't work for him, he also had plenty of time to learn that questions and otherwise requests for help are very likely to get attention. He could have said something as simple as: "Hey, how come it doesn't work for me? I have problems with this, this and that. Please advise so I can join the fun."

But let me cherrypick a few of his dramatic passages:

"not upheld by KXStudio"
"It is fallacious to assume"
"band-aids on a knife-wound"
"grievously flawed"
"Disregard for ensuring"
"any respectable maintainer would be wholly embarrassed or ashamed"

Holy Moses. Niles Crane or Eric Raymond wouldn't have gone as far. Read it again and see how affected the whole piece is.

And this kind of diatribe happens every day on the internets. I'm pretty sure I wrote something like that myself once or twice in my 15 years of Linux. I believe I lost my cool when PC-BSD people told me to "just get a PS-2 mouse" when my USB mouse wouldn't work on it in 2008 -- but would on a rescue boot disk with MS DOS drivers dated from 1996. We all get pushed a notch too far once in a while.

But meh. Whatever. It's irrelevant.

[schick]

I am thrilled that the KXStudio distro exists. I was easy to install. sure I could have installed another distribution, the added the repositories, but using the distro was (is) easy, took less time, and works great.

Screw the network manager. I just switched from m,y wifi to a cable and I didn't have to pull my hair out.


I am thankful to whoever made the distro (it is a distro) a reality.

[bhilmers]

You completely changed the focus of what I said.

Nope. You summarized your view in this statement:

It's just a meaningless, automatic reaction rooted in an outdated culture. This whole episode is a non-event. It should probably be ignored.

And I disagree. I'm old too. I understand your statement about his use of "why I'm giving up..." and it has nothing to do with "outdated culture." It's the opposite. His post is indicative of today's culture, where you have the freedom to express your views the way you want no matter how unpopular they are. You even agree above when you say it "happens every day on the internets." To me it seems you are engaging in a form of victim blaming. His post isn't a "non-event" nor is his experience, which you have no knowledge of outside what he posted. It doesn't matter that he was only on the forum a couple days. It doesn't matter that didn't ask for help. Neither of those things are a measure of the work he puts into his system. Maybe he actually RTFM? We don't know. But I do know he has every right to express his grievances and user feedback is valuable even when it goes against the norm, which in this case is lauding praise on KX. I agree it's a good project. But ToFue's experience might not be as uncommon as you think. It's certainly closer to mine, that's for sure, and I'm glad to read it. I can relate to his frustration, as over the top as it is, and I can read past that without dismissing him.

Why I'm Giving Up on the Digital Divide
Why I’m Giving Up On Being Happy
Why I'm giving up on car-free living
Why I'm giving up on My Dream

[Luc]

"Why I'm Giving Up..." Considered Harmful.

[asbak]

I don't have experience with the original poster's particular issues but he's making flawed assumptions basing all his hopes for "KXStudio" upon the isos.
Many if not most people just install the repos and install it on top of whatever Debian-like OS they're already running which negates complaints about supposed OS issues and bugs.

Trying to locate, compile and run through the dependency hell of so much of that software which is contained within the repo is a job for a sado-masochist. Why reinvent the wheel? Pointless unless you have a lot of free time on your hands or you have specific reasons for wanting to do it this way. Sure it's a "lazy" approach to take but assuming many typical users are more motivated by wanting to make music than learn the insides of every app it makes more sense to use what's already provided in an easy to install format.

Are there more and often better options for audio under OSX and Windows? For sure there are but nowadays there isn't all that much which is still lacking under Linux. Perhaps sample libraries but even these can sometimes be used via WINE even if it won't run as well as under native conditions.

I can't think of major showstoppers even if certain areas can be comparatively lacking. At the end of the day the tools and equipment aren't going to be the major determining factor in how good a production will be. That quality will depend on the operator (user/producer) and the media are already full of examples of extreme-cacophony expertly produced on the latest and flashiest proprietary wares.

What areas are really still that terrible? My 2c:

- Lack of pro sample libraries (this is a problem unless one can cope with running proprietary ones under Wine)
- Lack of quality vsti's (there are already a few but more would be nice)

Anything else?

[Luc]

Are there more and often better options for audio under OSX and Windows? For sure there are
(...)
- Lack of quality vsti's (there are already a few but more would be nice)

I think that perception should be updated. Now that we can run most Windows VSTs (through Carla, Festige and Airwave) besides the native VSTs, we actually have MORE plugins than they do.

[asbak]

It can potentially be run through WINE but it isn't a sure thing.

My experience has been (perhaps it's different for others) that typical Windows vsti's are more likely to crash or xrun in Linux than typical native Linux vsti's, LADSPA or LV2 plugs.
I certainly don't think it would be a good idea to try and use windows vsti's running in Wine in a live situation for example. It's just way too risky.
For studio work it's less of a problem even if performance isn't as good (kontakt in Wine for example) as it would have been under OSX or Windows.

[Aleks]

You completely changed the focus of what I said.

Nope. You summarized your view in this statement:

It's just a meaningless, automatic reaction rooted in an outdated culture. This whole episode is a non-event. It should probably be ignored.

And I disagree. I'm old too. I understand your statement about his use of "why I'm giving up..." and it has nothing to do with "outdated culture." It's the opposite. His post is indicative of today's culture, where you have the freedom to express your views the way you want no matter how unpopular they are. You even agree above when you say it "happens every day on the internets." To me it seems you are engaging in a form of victim blaming. His post isn't a "non-event" nor is his experience, which you have no knowledge of outside what he posted.

The OP has every right to his opinion and to state what ever he feels, but so does everybody else to state their own opinion about his opinion. I don't know what is the interest of Falk to invest his time in maintaining his repositories and his distro, you have the option to donate if you want to, but in the end of the day, you still have it for free, right? So,there should be a bit more appreciation, in my opinion. Or let's take Ardour, for example. It's not the best DAW there in the world, it has its flaws, but it's still one of the best that you can get for free, legally. So, I wouldn't start a rant post about how it is worth of shit, and that the dev is this or that, without even contacting him or asking for his help in the first place.

The simple answer for that would be - then why don't you build your own distro, or app or whatever? The idea of Linux, as far as I understand it, is about sense of community, where everybody contributes as much as they can, some with their developing skill, and those of us without such skills, with our use and reporting of the flaws, and then with some suggestions.

[m.lp.ql.m]

One specification KXStudio doesn't uphold is the engineering "Iron Triangle" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_m ... t_triangle: somehow, falktx is able to deliver good AND fast AND cheap.

[asbak]

Ask for volunteers to write up the docs
Perhaps a Wiki project for KXStudio where people can start documenting usage, functionality and so on.

[briandc]

One specification KXStudio doesn't uphold is the engineering "Iron Triangle" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_m ... t_triangle: somehow, falktx is able to deliver good AND fast AND cheap.

I would say the correct term is "passion." When you have a passion for something, it shows.

Btw, the "iron triangle" is just more talk on how to maximize profit and make the workers think they're doing something good.

It is used to illustrate that project management success is measured by the project team's ability to manage the project, so that the expected results are produced while managing time and cost.

Boss gets richer quicker, with fewer but harder workers.


brian