Non-stuff in KXStudio

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wolftune
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Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by wolftune »

I keep hearing about Non-session-manager, is that something separate worth having as an option? People seem really happy with it. Or could it ideally be an option for Claudia?? Also, it's "non-timeline" now? But KXStudio just not updated?
Aaron Wolf
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wolftune
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by wolftune »

As I have personally still been confused and struggled with LADISH stuff, I would be grateful if anyone could lay out a quick comparison between Non-Session vs LADISH/Claudia

Oh, and side note: I see that I have non-session manager. I was confused about it not being in Claudia Launcher tools section, but doh :oops: you're not going to have Claudia run sessions that include another session manager :roll: so, yeah, I get it now I think. :P

I should experiment with Non-Session. This issue overall, session management is the one area I'm most unsure about still…
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ToddMWorth
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by ToddMWorth »

wolftune wrote:session management
I think I better dedicate next week to documenting this stuff. I'm surprised it's so popular!

wolftune
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by wolftune »

Not sure why the surprise. Session management is the heart of Linux audio. The point is that things can be modular and integrated in way not possible with monolithic DAWs. But that's no good, not even anywhere near as good as just having a monolithic DAW unless everything can be integrated smoothly. Session management is probably the most important (and most problematic and confusing) element of all Linux audio.

And I still don't fully get it myself.
Aaron Wolf
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ToddMWorth
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by ToddMWorth »

wolftune wrote:Not sure why the surprise. Session management is the heart of Linux audio.
I don't know if I'd go that far, it's a new addition to the linux audio world. Perhaps that's the reason for my surprise - I'm accustomed to not having and using session management tools, so I don't use them, and my perspective is limited; I don't know how others use their studios.

Still, your point is valid, it's a very important addition!!
And I still don't fully get it myself.
I think I can safely say that goes for all of us. Next week I'm going to dedicate a lot of hours to figuring it out and documenting it, I hope it's helpful!

varpa
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by varpa »

NSM already has excellent documentation: http://non.tuxfamily.org/nsm/ Really its very simple, just add all the applications you want in your session, make the required Jack connections (by any method), add a "jackpatch" client to save the Jack connections. NSM will start/stop applications even if they do not have NSM support.

wolftune
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by wolftune »

Is there a reference list somewhere of what session features are supported by different programs? (for non and for other session tools, ideally)
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RockHopper
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by RockHopper »

wolftune wrote:Is there a reference list somewhere of what session features are supported by different programs? (for non and for other session tools, ideally)
I'm just getting to grips with session management at the moment. From what I understand so far:
  • LASH and Jack Session can remember the connections of compatible apps and also tell those apps where projects should be saved to and loaded from, but neither LASH nor Jack Session is able to handle apps without built-in session support.

    LADISH is compatible with apps that have built-in LASH and/or Jack Session support, and also those that don't. Apps without session support but which do respond to the "SIGUSR1" Unix signal can be told to save their current project, though a save location cannot be specified. For apps that don't respond to the "SIGUSR1" signal, only their connections are remembered.
I haven't sussed out NSM yet. In case it's of any use, here are some links to some helpful pages about session management:

Linux Weekly News: A brief survey of Linux audio session managers
The Penguin Producer: The LADI Session Handler
Tango Studio: LADISH
Nedko Arnaudov: LADISH Creator's Blog
Tango Studio: Jack Session
Jack Audio: Apps with Jack Session Support

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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by RockHopper »

After the quote in the above post I forgot to add: “I too have been searching for a simple list/table comparing the pros and cons of various session managers, but have been unable to find one.”

Having checked out the last development snapshot of Non Session Manager in the testing repo (dated 19th March) I thought I'd put together the following brief comparison of session managers. If anyone spots any errors or omissions please let me know!

LASH
  • Fully compatible with JACK and ALSA apps that have built-in support for LASH
  • Not compatible with apps that have support for other session managers
  • Not compatible with apps without session manager support
  • GUI frontend: lash_panel, GLashCtl
  • Saving a session will save the state of all LASH-supported apps plus their JACK connections
  • Opening a session will automatically launch those apps, restoring their state and JACK connections
  • Supported apps can be told to save/load their state to/from a specific location
  • First released in 2005. No longer in active development
  • Supported apps: [url]http://apps.linuxaudio.org/apps/all/lash[/url]
JACK Session
  • Fully compatible with JACK apps that have built-in support for JACK Session
  • Not compatible with apps that have support for other session managers
  • Limited compatibility with apps without session manager support (only JACK connections can be restored)
  • GUI frontend: QJackCtl, PyJackSM
  • Saving a session will save the state of all 'JACK Session'-supported apps plus their JACK connections
  • Opening a session will automatically launch those apps, restoring their state and JACK connections
  • Supported apps can be told to save/load their state to/from a specific location
  • First released in 2011. Currently in active development
  • Supported apps: [url]http://apps.linuxaudio.org/apps/categories/jack_session[/url], [url]http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/User/jack_session[/url]. N.B. Jack Session support in Ardour3 is currently broken
LADISH
  • Fully compatible with JACK apps that have built-in support for LADISH, JACK Session or LASH
  • Not compatible with apps that only support Non Session Manager
  • Limited compatibility with apps without session manager support:
    • Some apps are programmed to save their current state when they receive the “SIGUSR1” Unix signal, and LADISH is able to send this signal to such apps. On receiving this signal, apps may then open a save file dialogue or save their state to a default file location. The user may need to load this state file manually after a session is restored
    • For apps which do not respond to the SIGUSR1 signal, LADISH is only able to restore their JACK connections
  • GUI frontend: Gladish, Claudia
  • Saving a session will save the state of all apps (except for those that cannot be prompted, one way or another, to save their state) plus the JACK connections of ALL apps
  • Opening a session will automatically launch all apps, restoring their state (if possible) plus their JACK connections
  • Apps which support LADISH, JACK Session or LASH can be told to save/load their state to/from a specific location
  • First released in 2009. Currently in active development
  • Supported apps: [url]http://apps.linuxaudio.org/apps/all/ladish[/url]
Non Session Manager
  • Fully compatible with apps that have built-in NSM support regardless of their audio backend (be it JACK, ALSA, PulseAudio, etc.)
  • Not compatible with apps that have support for other session managers
  • Limited compatibility with apps without session manager support (via nsm-proxy) :
    • Some apps are programmed to save their current state when they receive the “SIGUSR1” Unix signal, and NSM is able to send this signal to such apps. On receiving this signal, apps may then open a save file dialogue or save their state to a default file location. The user may need to load this state file manually after a session is restored
    • For apps which do not respond to the SIGUSR1 signal, NSM is only able to restore their JACK connections (via jackpatch)
  • GUI frontend: has its own GUI
  • Saving a session will save the state of apps with NSM or SIGUSR1 support plus the JACK connections of ALL apps (via jackpatch)
  • Opening a session will automatically launch all apps (even unsupported ones), restoring their state (if possible) plus their JACK connections
  • Apps which support NSM can be told to save/load their state to/from a specific location
  • First released in 2010. Currently in active development
  • Supported apps: [url]http://apps.linuxaudio.org/apps/categories/nsm[/url], [url]http://www.linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7986[/url]. Ardour 3.10 also supports NSM
Last edited by RockHopper on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Pablo
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by Pablo »

Good writing! Although I miss the answer to these questions:

Is the project in active development?
How old is the project?
Which are the supported apps?

Also, I miss some words about Chino and custom scripting via aj-snapshot and friends.

This should go to the wiki, I think. Here it is OT and it will be lost.

RockHopper
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by RockHopper »

Pablo wrote:Good writing! Although I miss the answer to these questions:

Is the project in active development?
How old is the project?
Which are the supported apps?
OK, I will add this to the post.
Pablo wrote:Also, I miss some words about Chino and custom scripting via aj-snapshot and friends.
I was really only covering the most well-known session managers that a newcomer to Linux audio would be likely to encounter. Neither Chino nor aj-snapshot have GUIs as far as I'm aware, and I believe Chino is still in heavy development.
Pablo wrote:This should go to the wiki, I think. Here it is OT and it will be lost.
I think that would be helpful for many newbies. Would this be the Linux Musicians Wiki or the KXStudio Manual that danboid is currently writing?

Pablo
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by Pablo »

I think that would be helpful for many newbies. Would this be the Linux Musicians Wiki or the KXStudio Manual that danboid is currently writing?
I meant Linuxmusicians wiki.
http://www.wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku ... management

Cheers!

krodelabestiole
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by krodelabestiole »

Hello,

sorry to dig this topic out but 4 years later it still is the best ressource I was able to find about session management.
Thank you RockHopper, and thank you falkTX for your great work in general.
RockHopper wrote:LADISH
  • Fully compatible with JACK apps that have built-in support for LADISH, JACK Session or LASH
I'm not sure LADISH is that compatible with jack-session though. But the website having been down for a while I can't confirm it's not either.
At least I haven't been able to make Claudia handle advanced functionalities (other than level 0) with Jack-session compatible apps.

Am I missing something here ? Is there any plan to make Claudia compatible with Jack-session ? Or any other app from the Cadence suite ?

krodelabestiole
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Re: Non-stuff in KXStudio

Post by krodelabestiole »

Thanks a lot for your answer.
I'm happy to know it is supported and to clarify things !
I had never tried to use rooms indeed.

Right now on a very first test, LADISH crashes when I try to load Hydrogen in a room. I will do a few more tests.

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