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Why people dont like KDE ?

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:10 pm
by i2productions
riffmastergeneral wrote:is it that people dont like KDE ?
One reason. Bloated(yes more than gnome) and difficult to navigate the slew of options(I have a much easier time using Openbox or a command line than I do KDE)
riffmastergeneral wrote:how come you dont promote KXStudio as the out of the box godsend for musicians it is
Every pc and audio interface are different. If we were all using Macs with the exact same hardware than there would be no issue getting things to work. What works for you out-of-the-box may confound another user simply because of some conflicting piece of hardware.
riffmastergeneral wrote:how come no one is singing the praises of the genius of this Awesome thing out of the box
Actually it's everywhere. Usually at the end of every thread. While I'm at it, let me yet again put the shout out to falkTX as one of the greatest programmers behind music freedom today!

Re: Just a thankyou really

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:34 am
by i2productions
He asked a question about why people have issues. I answered it. You're really going to take it personally because not everyone likes KDE? I was just trying to answer a question, so I don't know how you think its out of context. Calm down. Trust me, I haven't opened up and really spoken my kind about that desktop, just pointed out the reasons some people don't like it. And when I compared it to gnome is was meant to compare it to the next most bloated desktop. I have fund that I like things about every linux desktop, and right now I'm rocking e17 with some lxde components, so don't think i am playing favorites.

Re: Just a thankyou really

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:37 am
by Thad E Ginathom
Ubuntu comes with Unity. I don't, and can safely say that I will never use that.

Ubuntu Studio comes with XFCE. I don't use that

KXStudio, as a distribution, comes with KDE. Not to my taste.

KXStudio can be installed from the KXS repos with several desktops. It's part of the choice, and choice is part of the Linux philosophy.

KXStudio is working, for me, with MATE. Outside of Mint, that is probably still a minority desktop choice, so I can add a thank you for that!

We have a choice. But it also has to be understood that there maybe support difficulties when moving away from the standard
falkTX wrote: I've worked hard to tune KDE to its max, so it's now as fast/snappy as XFCE4 at least.
Appreciated. The KXS applications work ("just work", which is what this thread is about). I don't doubt that it works best in the tailored environment. If I ever need to work it very much harder than I do now, that'd be the way to go.

Above all, as per the thread title, thank you!

Re: Just a thankyou really

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:24 pm
by i2productions
Thad said very elegantly exactly what I meant to articulate the first time!

Re: Just a thankyou really

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:51 pm
by riffmastergeneral
Wow guys thankyou so much for all the responses , and so passionate , most of that never occurred to me , i do hope i haven’t started a flame war over desktops . i guess our choice of desktop just reflects the way we process things really and for me discovering KXStudio and KDE has just revolutionised the way i work .... im in heaven , plus just as a side dish if anybody wants to pop back to XP or Win 7 for a few days im sure you’ll be reminded of what Bloatware Really is hahaha , so thankyou again for such a warm welcome and hope maybe sometimes i can make a contribution ....

Re: Just a thankyou really

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:33 am
by wolftune
I don't want this to go off topic, but here's my feelings:

What I love about GNU/Linux is that when things aren't right, I feel like I can do something about it. I'm not at the mercy of some company that doesn't give a shit unless it makes them richer. I am indebted to falkTX for providing the best computer system I have ever used. However, to get it to be that for me, it required me doing a lot of fiddling. Thankfully, KDE was flexible and could do what I want. falkTX was accommodating and has taken my suggestions to heart.

So while there is so much to say beyond what I have time for here, I want to clarify this: if someone complains about the KDE system or the KXStudio status quo, they can do it the right way or the wrong way.

Right: recognize that this is all FLOSS, and supportive community, and KDE is amazing, so you can improve things to get what you want, and furthermore some portion of all your suggestions and tweaking and fixes will be of use to others and will eventually be combined into future versions of what will keep improving!

Wrong: look at some aspect of the status quo and criticize the whole system or the DE or whatever. The question isn't whether the status quo is perfect (it isn't). The question is whether the community and the tools are adaptable, accommodating, well-intentioned, and have a great foundation upon which to keep building (the answer is YES!)


Re: Just a thankyou really

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:10 am
by i2productions
I really don't want this to degrade into a "who's DE is better?" But seriously, you're imposing right and wrong...WHEN TALKING ABOUT LINUX?? The beauty is it's open and you can do what you want. If falkTX chooses KDE as a desktop for the general public, it's his project, and he's an amazing programmer. I'm very thankful that other desktops are easily supported by the repos, and I know I'm not alone. But I can't install KDE on ANY computer. I can install LXDE or e17 on NEARLY every computer. It's not up to you to decide, what's right and wrong for someone else. If a majority of the community is happy with the desktop at hand for the ISO realease of KXStudio, than that's great. But, if over time the user base shifts to a bunch of people that prefer DE X, then maybe it's best to listen to the community. It's great to keep it civil and polite, but to not criticize things, is to not move forward(as a principal in life, not just applied to this topic.)

Re: Just a thankyou really

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:18 am
by wolftune
i2: sheesh :roll:

Give me some benefit of the doubt. Try to read what I actually intended. It wasn't a personal attack or a judgment of anyone's choices. Text is always lacking nuance, and people need to accept that!

I didn't say anyone was wrong to criticize KDE necessarily or even say anything about DE's being right or wrong. Here's a rewording of what I said:

right (as in what is fair and ethical, what is honorable): understand that things are a work in progress and complain and criticize appropriately with understanding that things are always changing and there's flexibility

wrong (as in dishonorable unfair judgmentalism): take a particular status quo of something as fluid as GNU/Linux development and make some absolute all-around conclusive judgment

Now, I'm not saying this to address any person in particular or any particular statement. Maybe nobody ever does the extreme that I'm talking about. It's just a reference point, ok? In the case of KDE and KXStudio, it's quite simply this: it is not helpful to flat out conclude that KDE is cumbersome and slow as though that's that. It is a very flexible system in continual development. It is more useful to say that a particular experience with KDE showed it being much slower than some other DE. That's fine. I'm not trying to even get into the details. (for reference though, my KDE 4.10 install in KXStudio is wonderfully snappy and efficient and I'm on a cheap netbook)

Here's a concrete example: there is a known bug in ALSA that caused KXStudio to kernel panic (although a temporary block but not true fix has since been implemented). Right way to address this: "I found a bug! How do we fix it?" (answer: it is fixed upstream, we need to figure out sometime how to integrate the fix or wait for kernel updates). Wrong way to address this: "KXStudio is buggy! Use this other system instead…"

Ok? That's what I mean by right and wrong. And things aren't totally relative. I can totally say this level of right and wrong and tell others this. There's nothing about this that is me unfairly "telling others what is right or wrong for them." This is me explaining some concrete things about what is right and wrong in general for fair discourse. That's all I mean.

Judge KXStudio and KDE and any other systems by their presence as living, evolving projects, not as some monolithic thing that just is whatever your judgment may be. And I didn't think anyone would disagree with me, I'm not picking sides, I thought this was common sense, yet something that sometimes we need reminders about.


Re: Just a thankyou really

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:42 am
by Heikki Ketoharju
I don't want to participate this battle of desktops. Just few words: I installed KXStudio 12.10 and used it on top of Unity. I know that it's not supported, but still! I mean, everything just worked! I had _the best_ music making experience I've ever had on Unity! Other music software titles on Linux just can't do that, but FalkTX's software does it all even though it's tailored for KDE. What can I say, really? Only bugs I had were Unity bugs... So big up for FalkTX! It's not the DE selected that matters, but the quality of work!

Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:39 am
by wolftune
Ok, since this is now on-topic:

I propose that any judgmental statement about any DE be demanded to include a version number and ideally other contexts. Don't say "KDE is ___" or "Unity is ____"
Instead say: "KDE 4.8 within Kubuntu 12.04 is _____ in my experience"

because seriously, don't compare that to KDE 4.10 running in KXStudio! And don't compare KDE 4.10 in KXStudio to whatever might come later. And the same goes for other DE's or distros.

If you are saying something that is absolutely inherent, like an issue with qt framework vs gtk, then make sure to identify that as the issue.


Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:50 am
by i2productions
I feel better now that it's not in a Thank you to you. But I never meant to bash KDE. If you like it, and most people like it, then go with it. KDE was the first desktop I was ever exposed to in linux in 2005. All I'm going to say right now is, I didn't like it then, and every time I give a desktop a spin that has KDE, I feel like I'm stumbling around. When I say bloated, I don't mean so much extra packages, but it seems like the desktop has too many different pieces that are very different than every other desktop I've ever run. I like it better than Unity, but a desktop is an interface, and however you best accomplish your goals, that's great for you! Maybe I'll give KXStudio live dvd a spin again and give you the specifics(been a while since I gave KDE a serious spin.) I love kxstudio, and all the tools that go along with it. My only gripes ever are in the KDE desktop.
Heikki Ketoharju wrote:I know that it's not supported, but still! I mean, everything just worked! I had _the best_ music making experience I've ever had on Unity!
While Unity is probably the one desktop I like less than KDE, I have to agree with the sentiment Heikki Ketoharju was trying to make. I've thoroughly tested KXStudio repos with cairo-dock session, e17, lxde, cinnamon, MATE, openbox, XFCE, razor-qt, KDE, gnome-shell, and Unity(I've laid these out in order of preference of desktop.) They all work just fine. As far as I can tell, the only real bug I can find is in one of my favorites, cario-dock session. The sound&video menu is devoid of programs after kxstudio install first reboot.

At the end of the day though, I will still hand it to falkTX and since it's his project, if that's his preference I'm all for it. He's an amazing programmer and he's entitled to make that choice. I'm just glad he gave more of us the option to easily make everything work!

EDIT:Wolftune, sorry no version numbers(I posted at the same time as you), but I do think they are irrelivant. I'll give KDE another spin with 4.10, but 8 years of trying and disliking KDE, this point release better be good!

Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:59 am
by GraysonPeddie
Guys, if you don't like the default look of KDE, how about something like this?

You could live with only cairo-dock.

My wallpaper changes every 15 minutes. Style, meet simplicity! No panels, just two docks (one for clock and one for applications). :)

Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:07 am
by i2productions
I kinda dig the clock up top in it's own dock. I use panel mode, so it feels like a traditional desktop with launchers on left, and utilities on right. I realize the visual feel of the desktop I enjoy can be achieved in KDE. That's not the core of my issues with the desktop. I seem to prefer Gnome tools in general better, such as nautilus/nemo, gedit(though recently I've switched to leafpad, very nice light graphical notepad) and the seemingly easy 'Control Panel'. I just find in hard to navigate the array of options. My workhorse computer has 9 gigs of RAM and 3GHz quad core. Big system usage isn't my issue. But for a general release I think a lighter(but still highly customizable) desktop might be better. My testing of desktops show that I like pieces from nearly all of them. The beauty of linux is, we can have this.

Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:10 am
by wolftune
i2productions wrote:EDIT:Wolftune, sorry no version numbers(I posted at the same time as you), but I do think they are irrelivant. I'll give KDE another spin with 4.10, but 8 years of trying and disliking KDE, this point release better be good!
Obviously, based on your apology, you meant to say "do [NOT] think they are irrelevant" :lol:

Anyway, if you want to try my version of KDE 4.10, which I am very happy with, here's the thing:

1. set it up via KXStudio, not via Kubuntu or something
2. use my colors and qtCurve widgets:
*note* make sure to run kxstudio-apply-root and also set application widgets to my qtCurve set and also set gtk+ widgets to oxygen-gtk (which you need to install) [my qtcurve widgets are very similar and compatible with oxygen, so they can be mixed and matched. If you choose oxygen as your main widgets, setting my widgets for qtCurve will still affect qt apps like Cadence!]
3. run my (and falkTX's) script:

Code: Select all

in terminal enter:
        qdbus org.kde.plasma-desktop /MainApplication showInteractiveConsole
    remove existing panel
    go here:
    and paste script into the plasma console and execute
4. set the workspace appearance to Oxygen windows but with no border
5. probably turn on OpenGL and Raster for desktop effects, and Crisp mode, slide for desktop switching, taskbar thumbnails on for sure (works great with the icon-only task-manager)

There's a bunch of other subtle things I've adjusted to get the system I like.

Now, I think it is absurd for everyone to go through all of this. I'm working with falkTX to get as much of this as is reasonable to be an alternative option that users could set when installing KXStudio. If someone could just have this on install, I think they'll be quite pleased.

So, in my opinion, the issues with KDE are all about setup, not about KDE inherently. But, to show matter of preferences, I think there are nice things about Unity even, and I don't hate it.


Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:57 am
by tatch
my 2c about KDE: I started out with gnome and always wondered about the "other side of the fence" KDE, that's where all the eyecandy was, until i tried openSUSE a few years ago which uses KDE by default and I didn't like it. I also recently installed KX directly from the live CD with KDE and I still don't like it. I don't like the default "feel" of KDE: to me it is too slick (as in shiny) and feels slow (maybe because of its graphical flourishes, not any perceptible lag; I'm not saying it is bloated, just that to me it feels bloated), and I don't like Kate or Dolphin. Konsole is OK though.

(As an aside, lately I've been conflicted about disliking KDE because I like Qt a lot more than GTK, but I still prefer Gnome/Unity/XFCE (well XFCE is ok and I like its responsiveness but to me it just doesn't feel as "substantive" (for lack of a better word) than Gnome/Unity) over KDE. Also I tried E17 after reading i2 raving about it and I don't prefer it either, I don't like the click-for-menu thing that E17 and other lightweight DEs have going on and I get tired of looking through all the menus trying to figure out how to change it to more conventional behavior.)

I read wolftune's post about the 'status quo' and 'respecting the community/developers'. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think I'm disrespecting anybody more than they deserve by saying I disliked their software from my experiences, even if it is free. I'm not badmouthing them or what they've made just for the sake of argument, nor am I making leaping generalizations or oversimplifying my experiences just to make a point. I don't see how it's heinous that I should disagree with their vision, in this case of how a DE should be. To me the default feel in a lot of ways represents the primary vision of its developers, even given the ability to make as many changes as I want. I don't think "extensive customization" is a reason that most any software is "good" or "worthwhile" (of course exceptions exist). I mean, you can even massively overhaul a windows machine's UI if you wanted to, but most people perceive windows with its default theme (and reasonably so). I already modify my system enough with a number of ppas and .rcs and confs and it isn't something I enjoy doing, in fact it's annoying but since I want those modifications and there isn't an easier way to achieve them I do them. I'd really just prefer to have something that works mostly the way I want from the start and only have to change a couple of settings, but if I had to spend what I see as unnecessary amounts of time just to get a system working in a way that another setup would have done automatically and rather satisfactorily, I don't see the point (barring things like "ideological beliefs", which doesn't really apply for me in DE-land). Just because a DE offers you the ability to swap stuff in/out doesn't mean everybody enjoys doing so. If somebody likes KDE's default feel, or likes a slightly modified KDE feel, or even likes tweaking KDE a ton to fine-tune their configuration to exactly what they want then wonderful. But I don't (to all of the above), and so I can say without much remorse that I don't prefer KDE as a DE.