Why people dont like KDE ?

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i2productions
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by i2productions »

falkTX wrote:lol @ ram usage.

Both Firefox and Chrome(ium) use huge amounts of RAM.
Here with just 2 tabs it's using 300Mb, and I know if I open a lot of them I can quickly go pass 1Gb!

Now heh, does RAM usage matter that much?
I have 4Gb in my laptop, I would feel bad if not using them, they can get lonely...
I got 9 gigs, not my issues. But not all my friends are so fortunate. I know what you mean. I do some sports betting, and when I line up hockey matches I have a dozen instances of firefox loaded sometimes(most I've ever seen was 4.5 gigs of just Firefox loaded into my RAM.)

All I'm saying is it's one more reason to not enjoy it. What benifit am I getting out of that extra RAM usage? With extra or bigger processes, does that mean more CPU usage as well? I'd have to do some more stringent benchmarking, but KDE just has never "felt right" to me.

wolftune
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by wolftune »

If 150MB is the RAM usage of the most efficient system running as minimal as possible, then a mere doubling of that for a much more robust system is not bad at all. And yeah, 300MB means even a 1GB RAM system could handle it fine. And yes, there are even further ways to slim down KDE.

Now, the point is: i2: your writing comes across to me as hating on KDE rather than just remarking about the positive qualities of E17. I have never done this in reverse. I'm intrigued by E17 and others and would be open to testing them sometime. None of this convinces me that there's anything bad about KDE. I already know what I don't like about KDE, and I was able to adjust it to get rid of almost all of it. I wish it was easier to get the entire set of my KDE setup to others to have them try it. I also would be happy to see KDE continue to learn to slim down and aim to compete with E17's efficiency (and they are doing this! KDE 4.10 now uses tons of stuff with qt-quick which is way more efficient and snappy!)
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i2productions
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by i2productions »

wolftune wrote:your writing comes across to me as hating on KDE rather than just remarking about the positive qualities of E17
As I've said a couple of times here, I never wanted to get into this. But since my name is now at the top of this thread titled, "Why people don't like KDE?" I think I'm doing a great job of playing the villain in this narrative. I'm not the only one that has come out saying, "I just plain don't like KDE!" But since that wasn't enough and we needed an entire thread for "Why people don't like KDE", that's what it's about. Didn't think this thread was supposed to be about the positive benefits of anything. I don't care if you, or anyone uses E17, KDE, MATE, Openbox! So I'll keep this thread in the "context" the title was put in for me. "Why I don't like KDE!"

wolftune
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by wolftune »

i2: my point is simple: I don't respect "I don't like KDE because I like E17"

I want to hear why you don't like KDE, and I'm here trying to encourage you to see your reasons for what they are:

A. legitimate criticism that KDE should get bug reports on or otherwise work to improve, and thus ought to be worded in a manner that recognizes KDE for the current state without assuming this aspect to be permanent

B. just prejudice based on some intuition that may in fact have some reasonable source or may be just nonsense, but that's not always clear

C. preference for other DE's.

None of these justify a full out rejection of KDE, and they may be of more less value to discuss. Note: I'm not trying to say that having any of these is some personal failing or anything. But these things are the "why" and that's what this thread is now about. Just saying you don't like KDE ignores the "why" element. And yes, you've given some reasons. And others have then responded. And I hope you don't still see this as "taking away all the fun." I think this is just discussion, sometimes useful and productive, sometimes not so much.

8)
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i2productions
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by i2productions »

Why do you keep coming back to e17 for me? While I've spoken on it as a desktop for everyone, it's still not my favorite. I don't think it matters what I say about KDE, you're just going to tell me a way to tweak it to make it better, or tell me that it's insignificant. I gave a specific example, and it's dismissed. I say I just plain don't like it(yet I actually like almost every other linux desktop), and it's dismissed. So this leads me to the conclussion that the game is rigged. I'm a gambler, and I do quite well at it. I know when to fold. When you're interested in serious discussion of alternate desktops for kxstudio, let me know. Because you were one of the first people to ask me for a custom iso, and then you were one of my strongest critics when distributing further isos. I was planning on releasing kxstudio for nearly all desktops for ease of testing, but apparently there's no room in the world for them. Keep my chips, I fold.

wolftune
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by wolftune »

i2productions wrote:Why do you keep coming back to e17 for me?
I don't. It's the thing I am myself most curious about of those I haven't tried.
I don't think it matters what I say about KDE, you're just going to tell me a way to tweak it to make it better, or tell me that it's insignificant.
All I've said is that it *needs* tweaking to be better and that I think you'd like it more if you tried my tweaked system. And some things you say are insignificant. What do you expect when you complain? All I did was reply.
I gave a specific example, and it's dismissed.
It was addressed. You said you couldn't change the desktop pic with right-click. You were flat out wrong, you can. What sort of example is that‽
I say I just plain don't like it(yet I actually like almost every other linux desktop), and it's dismissed.
You can like what you want, that's fine. No accounting for taste. The question is "why", that's what is interesting to discuss. And anyway, you can have your tastes but you can't demand that others respect them. There are people like Todd mentioned who say something is awful because they aren't used to what the icon is or something. If you don't want people to take your judgments to be like that, then you take the time to explain why you feel a certain way.
So this leads me to the conclussion that the game is rigged. I'm a gambler, and I do quite well at it. I know when to fold.
The game is rigged? In that you aren't winning? This isn't a win/lose war. This is just a discussion. And the rules are: say something substantial, listen to the reply; if you do it well then people learn things and come to an understanding or identify things that distinguish different DE's for different people. If you're playing a game of convince-people-that-KDE-stinks and that's the preset goal, then you're not playing the same game as me, because I'm not playing a defend-KDE-from-all-attacks game. Go look over the history. It's pretty plain that's not what I'm doing.
When you're interested in serious discussion of alternate desktops for kxstudio, let me know. Because you were one of the first people to ask me for a custom iso, and then you were one of my strongest critics when distributing further isos. I was planning on releasing kxstudio for nearly all desktops for ease of testing, but apparently there's no room in the world for them. Keep my chips, I fold.
You offered, unsolicited, that I try your iso's after I mentioned in agreement that a better out-of-the-box beginner KXStudio install was needed, and I was willing. I tried one. I didn't like it especially. I wanted to see you keep experimenting but doing so with the blessings of others and respecting their requests. You took umbrage at how some people made their statements, and that was unfortunate but not all your fault; falkTX was more polite and you offered to work with him and honor his requests. I thought that was fine. I'm busy though, so I didn't get around to trying everything. I don't know where this all-or-nothing attitude comes from. Your contributions are welcome in principle, but people also like having their concerns respected, even though nobody is perfect at expressing them.

I don't know what else to say, except that it is far too easy to interpret your words as though you have some persecution complex. I'll assume you don't, so I offer just a friendly suggestion that you try to figure out how to word things so it doesn't come across that way.

In all seriousness: best wishes and be in touch and all. I have no hard feelings here… :?
Aaron Wolf
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tatch
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by tatch »

i2productions wrote:I gave a specific example, and it's dismissed. I say I just plain don't like it(yet I actually like almost every other linux desktop), and it's dismissed.
*throws in another 2c

i2, nobody's trying to cheat you out of your money. At first I was also a little taken aback from wolftune's posts but now I think that he really does just want to know why you don't like KDE. Giving him a example that only applied 2 years ago isn't much of a reason for why you still dislike it (unless you tend to hold grudges against software or something), and saying you don't like it because you don't like it is circular and unhelpful.

I don't particularly care why you don't like KDE since I don't like it either, but I just wanted to elucidate what wolftune is trying to say; I think a more substantive reason, such as "it looks bad" or "i don't like the feel" or "i don't like Qt" or "I don't like the way KDE renders widgets onto a screen" or "i don't like how KDE deals with the super key" would be more useful to wolftune. If he disagrees with your point then he'll explain why, and if he thinks your point is valid then he won't, that's all there is to it. No one has to get flustered over something like this.

skavar
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by skavar »

wolftune wrote:If 150MB is the RAM usage of the most efficient system running as minimal as possible, then a mere doubling of that for a much more robust system is not bad at all.
Hold on a moment... much more robust!!??

1. much more robust than what?

2. is this pre or post configuration robustness?

3. is this perhaps just a preference for KDE (after filing bug reports worded appropriately of course and helping to improve the robustness of other DE's) or could it be... Prejudice!!?
I don't know what else to say, except that it is far too easy to interpret your words as though you have some persecution complex. I'll assume you don't, so I offer just a friendly suggestion that you try to figure out how to word things so it doesn't come across that way.
Well, you know the word "complex" implies an unjustified reaction to imagined events. You must have meant something else.

As your friend I offer you some friendly advice, and that is, don't flog a dead horse.

In all seriousness: best wishes and be in touch and all. I have no hard feelings here… Heh

skavar
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by skavar »

I don't like KDE, I never have in all my 14 years of linux use. I used to like Gnome until Gnome3, I don't like Unity and Cinnamon was broken in LMDE last time I looked.
I have 4 KXStudio partitions, one with KDE one with XFCE one with E17 and one with LXDE. I have spent time on them all, but the one I prefer to load each day is XFCE.
I may have to run with LXDE as that is my 19 yr old daughters preference.

And you know, I can't be bothered to try and improve a DE that I am not going to use, I'll spend my time improving stuff I do use.

wolftune
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by wolftune »

skavar wrote: 1. much more robust than what?
Than LXDE or xfce at least. That's what I mean. And KDE and GNOME-based DE's may be similarly robust, but they are also similarly efficient / bloated whatever. And I wasn't even saying that more RAM means it is more robust, just that if it is, then it is worth it at this level. If E17 (the least RAM) really does it all, then neat. As I've been saying, I'm curious to try it.
2. is this pre or post configuration robustness?
Good question. If KDE needs more tweaking than other systems to work well, that's a great criticism worth heeding. I think that may in fact be the case. I like KDE overall, so I want to help it improve in this way.
3. is this perhaps just a preference for KDE (after filing bug reports worded appropriately of course and helping to improve the robustness of other DE's) or could it be... Prejudice!!?
What are you talking about? Show any example of me being prejudiced. Do I have biases? Of course, everyone has biases. I'm not hiding anything. I'm not claiming to have experiences other than those I've had. I'm not bashing anything. What are you trying to say here??
I don't know what else to say, except that it is far too easy to interpret your words as though you have some persecution complex. I'll assume you don't, so I offer just a friendly suggestion that you try to figure out how to word things so it doesn't come across that way.
Well, you know the word "complex" implies an unjustified reaction to imagined events. You must have meant something else.
Go read through the thread if you like. All the discussion can be summarized as: people discuss things about liking or disliking KDE, while interwoven with that i2 blames people for stopping him from doing his project, taking all the fun out of things, disrespecting him, telling him what to think, etc. i.e. reacting to imaginary events. It's as though he's being persecuted because we didn't accept his invalid example about changing the desktop image. It's hard to see it any other way. Go read through the thread.

Anyway, I sure hope i2 is not a dead horse :lol: , and if in fact he felt flogged, please be assured, I never flogged anyone and flogging is nothing I intend to do or to continue doing. :roll: But yeah, I guess the conclusion, and this is similar to the YALS thread, is: I think passive-aggressive over-reaction can be as or more offensive than criticism. If someone says something a little too harshly critical and someone else reacts extremely defensively, I'm not going to support the unwarranted defensiveness just because it was second. Defensiveness is as toxic to friendly discussion as attacking criticism is. Both should be discouraged. And yes, I hold no grudges. I like productive discussion and think everyone here has useful input. I even think your point is valid about me going on about things. I'm a bit obsessive-compulsive. I'm not perfect or anything. :oops:

8)
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i2productions
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by i2productions »

wolftune wrote:Go read through the thread if you like. All the discussion can be summarized as: people discuss things about liking or disliking KDE, while interwoven with that i2 blames people for stopping him from doing his project, taking all the fun out of things, disrespecting him, telling him what to think, etc. i.e. reacting to imaginary events. It's as though he's being persecuted because we didn't accept his invalid example about changing the desktop image. It's hard to see it any other way. Go read through the thread.
I'm reacting to YOU(BEING AN ASSHOLE!) AS I KEEP SAYING I NEVER WANTED TO TAKE ON THIS TOPIC! I NEVER WANTED MY FUCKING NAME ON THIS THREAD! SORRY I HAVEN'T USED KDE IN LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW ALL THE CURRENT DEVELOPMENT PIECES! HENCE WHY I NEVER WANTED TO DISCUSS THE SUBJECT! BUT YOU AND FALKTX SEEM TO TAKE OFFENSE TO ANY CRITISISM OF KDE! SO ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS FUCK YOU AND FUCK LINUXMUSICIANS, I'M OUT!

wolftune
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Re: Why people dont like KDE ?

Post by wolftune »

I guess I wasn't over-interpreting persecution-complex defensiveness after all. :(

If someone is inclined to take offense at everything, then I guess they just will no matter what you do, unless you agree with them about everything. Sorry, but there's no way in advance to know if someone is going to be that defensive over some mild little internet text. It doesn't make me feel good to upset or offend anyone. And you know, I've had some times when I was pretty upset about feeling ganged up on in some community forum. I don't mean to be insensitive. But seriously: I read over the thread myself and really thought about whether I could have done things differently and my conclusion: sure, there's room for improvement, but I wasn't an asshole at all. In any conflict or misunderstanding, everyone needs to take a moment to check themselves. I've been saying all along that I'm not perfect. I've even apologized. I'm doing my part to bring good-will to the table. At some point, the burden is on others to check themselves. I'll never hold a grudge anyway. You gotta learn to tolerate people's idiosyncrasies to get along in this world.

I'm not going to write another thing on this conflict here. The thread speaks for itself. I refuse to take any blame for someone leaving the community, because I didn't do anything besides engage in discussion. Anyone who feels they have something constructive to offer, go ahead. I'm also perfectly willing, interested even in feedback about how I could improve my wording without needing to be hypersensitive. But I don't want to waste any more time or pollute the forums more. Sorry. :|
Aaron Wolf
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