LV2 vs CLAP

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Basslint
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LV2 vs CLAP

Post by Basslint »

OK, so JUCE 7 started officially supporting LV2 and shortly after, a FLOSS competitor (CLAP) sprung up, with corporate backing from two audio companies (Bitwig and U-he). Will CLAP kill LV2, just like LV2 killed LADSPA+DSSI? After DAWs will have implemented proper CLAP hosting, why should a developer prefer LV2?

(This thread is specifically about the comparison between LV2 and CLAP, unlike the one about CLAP)
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by Basslint »

One thing that worries me about LV2 is that it is the work of a single person, David Robillard, who is according to his own page (gainfully) unemployed. Maybe he wants to work on LV2 on his spare time but is it not dangerous to have one of the most important pieces of FLOSS audio software be a hobby project? I think players in the FLOSS audio world (and those who don't want to depend on VST) should at least try to fund the development of LV2.

I am not a huge fan of corporate backings, to be honest- I'd rather prefer crowdfunding. But I think that in general it's good if those who adopt a technology and have a large userbase have a say in its development. CLAP got sponsored by Bitwig, maybe LV2 could get sponsored by Cockos (REAPER) since they use it? I don't know, all I know is that we have to make sure that our top developers are taken care of and that our top software are financially sustainable.
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by tramp »

Basslint wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:16 am Will CLAP kill LV2, just like LV2 killed LADSPA+DSSI?
That is very unlikely. LV2 was developed as a successor for LADSPA/DSSI, so it's clear that it is going to replace them. Still, all DAW's which supported LADSPA before, support LADSPA even today.
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by Kott »

David is not an Ableton employee anymore?
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by milkii »

LV2 is not just the creation of Drobilla, though they do do the majority of work on the core libs

they/them ta / libreav.org / wiki.thingsandstuff.org/Audio and related pages / gh

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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by Largos »

I don't know why it's billed as LV2 vs CLAP when it's more VST vs CLAP. It's an alternative aimed at proprietary plugin devs.
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by raboof »

Basslint wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:34 am is it not dangerous to have one of the most important pieces of FLOSS audio software be a hobby project?
I'm certainly in favor of funding all kinds of useful FLOSS work, but TBH I'm not so sure having a funded project is any less "dangerous" compared to an unfunded project. Sure, an unfunded project may 'stagnate' when no-one is currently interested in moving it forward, but a previously-funded project for which funding has diminished might be as (or even more) likely to suffer from that. A small community of occasional contributors might make a more 'sustainable' project than a single (under)funded maintainer.
Basslint wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:34 am I am not a huge fan of corporate backings, to be honest - I'd rather prefer crowdfunding
There's something to be said for both: on the one hand a corporate backing might come with unwanted 'strings attached'. On the other hand, I'd rather take money from companies (that have marketing and/or engineering money set aside for these kinds of things, depending on their motivation to fund the work) compared to getting it from private individuals. For example I liked how MOD paid for our hosting costs for a while (until they ghosted us): it's not a lot of money for them, they seemed 'ethically aligned', it didn't make us dependent (since we know we *can* cover the costs ourselves if needed), and this way it didn't need to come out of anyone's private pockets. It was sad that some appreciated forum members lost their shit when I announced it, even though I had been talking about looking for / contacting potential sponsors for a while at that point...
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

raboof wrote: MOD ghosted us
That's what happens when you put out on the first date. Sadie (gmaq's dog) hasn't called me back either after we did some "heavy petting"'.
forum members lost their shit
We need a 'Lost and found' forum. People here are always losing stuff, for example their sense of humor (usually after one of my posts).

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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by GMaq »

@raboof

MOD ghosted a lot of people... still waiting for a promised (and paid for) expression pedal like 6+ years later... :x :roll:

Back to the topic at hand...
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

GMaq wrote: waiting for a pedal
That really socks.
You should put your foot down, and tell them you expect it to shoe up toe-morrow if they want to heel their reputation.

Yes I enjoyed writing that more than you enjoyed reading it.

I know falktx got really angry about MOD devices' sponsorship, so he said he was leaving here (to seek employment). I wonder who he ended up working for?
raboof wrote: our hosting costs ... didn't need to come out of anyone's private pockets
Hopefully, you can find another corporate sponsor, because none of us want to see your privates come out of your pocket.

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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by raboof »

GMaq wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:24 pm MOD ghosted a lot of people... still waiting for a promised (and paid for) expression pedal like 6+ years later... :x :roll:
Ouch, sorry to hear it
GMaq wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:24 pm Back to the topic at hand...
Yeah, sorry for the tangent :)
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by d.healey »

Largos wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:48 am I don't know why it's billed as LV2 vs CLAP when it's more VST vs CLAP. It's an alternative aimed at proprietary plugin devs.
But VST3 is GPL
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by robbert-vdh »

d.healey wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:32 am But VST3 is GPL
Which is indeed a problem for closed source development. You can either release your plugins under the GPL, or you need to sign Steinberg's licensing agreement and pray they don't alter it any further. Anyways, even without comparing it to any other existing plugin formats and ignoring licensing, CLAP is a great plugin API on its own. It's incredibly simple to use with simple C APIs (so you can use it from any programming language with a C FFI without jumping through hoops), strongly typed wherever possible, built to be robust, and being a newcomer it has been able to learn a lot from what worked and what didn't work as well from past plugin APIs.
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by tramp »

GMaq wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:24 pm @raboof

MOD ghosted a lot of people... still waiting for a promised (and paid for) expression pedal like 6+ years later... :x :roll:

Back to the topic at hand...
Still, there are other story's as well. What, if I tell you that I own a Expression pedal? What, if I tell you that I've never paid a cent for any of my MOD gear? I own a MOD QUADRA, a MOD DUO and a MOD DWARF beside the Expression Pedal. All of that was sponsored by the MOD.
Okay, the Expression Pedal was from the first batch for the QUADRA device and didn't work with newer devices without doing some soldering.
But what I would say, essentially, the MOD, supported all time the Open Source Community and still is the only company I know which pay for open source LV2 plugin development at all, and without the MOD, many of my open source plugins wouldn't exist at all. Maybe your Money for the expression pedal gets involved therefore a bit.
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Re: LV2 vs CLAP

Post by GMaq »

tramp wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:56 pm
GMaq wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:24 pm @raboof

MOD ghosted a lot of people... still waiting for a promised (and paid for) expression pedal like 6+ years later... :x :roll:

Back to the topic at hand...
Still, there are other story's as well. What, if I tell you that I own a Expression pedal? What, if I tell you that I've never paid a cent for any of my MOD gear? I own a MOD QUADRA, a MOD DUO and a MOD DWARF beside the Expression Pedal. All of that was sponsored by the MOD.
Okay, the Expression Pedal was from the first batch for the QUADRA device and didn't work with newer devices without doing some soldering.
But what I would say, essentially, the MOD, supported all time the Open Source Community and still is the only company I know which pay for open source LV2 plugin development at all, and without the MOD, many of my open source plugins wouldn't exist at all. Maybe your Money for the expression pedal gets involved therefore a bit.
I'm sure this could be better taken to another thread if you want to discuss it... My original response to @raboof was already offtopic enough and this is an important discussion on it's own..
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