A question for programmers

Programming applications for making music on Linux.

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briandc
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A question for programmers

Post by briandc »

I've been thinking..
if softsynths are basically applications that create a sound source and send it through various processes,
then would it be possible to make an application that could "interpret" any (for example) VST softsynth's layout and reproduce it in a linux-based format? Wouldn't something like this be able to circumvent the need for Wine and all of the GUI-based problems of .dll/.exe instruments?

Being aware that Carla has a "native" GUI format for the synths that it hosts... something along those lines, but...

Anyone get what I'm trying to convey?


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Re: A question for programmers

Post by raboof »

briandc wrote:I've been thinking..
if softsynths are basically applications that create a sound source and send it through various processes,
then would it be possible to make an application that could "interpret" any (for example) VST softsynth's layout and reproduce it in a linux-based format? Wouldn't something like this be able to circumvent the need for Wine and all of the GUI-based problems of .dll/.exe instruments?
Yes, and no.

If the soft (or even hardware MIDI) synth is simple, you could use a tool like https://code.google.com/p/synthclone/ to do something like what you describe.

However, that is only part of the story: this approach basically assumes different notes played on the synth don't interact, but are simply played in parallel and mixed. Some more intricate synths may not be so simple: it might for example model some kind of overdrive, 'bleed' or other interaction between the 2 notes. Those characteristics will not carry over.

Also, it might be inefficient: a softsynth may have many parameters, and you've have to "reproduce" not only all values of these parameters, but again they might display complicated interactions.

So for simple softsynths this might work, but for more complicated instruments it won't.
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Re: A question for programmers

Post by ssj71 »

I would say yes, but the amount of time it would take to create it would be ridiculously long. Its not going to happen unless an ambitious developer really wants it. Its more likely someone just clones the synth manually and writes their own version.
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Re: A question for programmers

Post by tramp »

In VST(i)s the GUI and the Engine aren't separated like it is usual in LV2. So, you cant split it the way you "dream" of.
And even if, the engine still requests windows library’s and environment to run. If it is Open Source, it could be ported to linux, but close source binary only VST(i)s aren’t suitable to run without Wine.
More likely is, like raboof mention, a tool like synthclone, to "clone the synth tone.
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Re: A question for programmers

Post by briandc »

Synthclone is basically sampling synth sounds, which is not what I had in mind though.
What I was thinking of, was an application that is set up to analyze an instrument in order to determine various things:
1) sound sources
2) modulators
3) envelopes
4) signal routeing, etc.

Then it would recreate the set-up in a simple linux-based GUI layout.

Perhaps it's too difficult to do; although Carla comes close, since Carla provides a native GUI for instruments which varies depending on how the instrument is designed.
But the instrument remains VST or non-linux-based, whereas my idea was something that would make a new, open-source instrument.


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Re: A question for programmers

Post by tramp »

briandc wrote:Synthclone is basically sampling synth sounds, which is not what I had in mind though.
What I was thinking of, was an application that is set up to analyze an instrument in order to determine various things:
1) sound sources
2) modulators
3) envelopes
4) signal routeing, etc.

Then it would recreate the set-up in a simple linux-based GUI layout.

[. . . . ]
But the instrument remains VST or non-linux-based, whereas my idea was something that would make a new, open-source instrument.


brian
What you talk about here is usually called "reverse engineering", and is, hard on the boarder to be illegal.
If a developer decide to publish the own work as close source, we have to respect this, otherwise you hurt copy/intellectually rights.
In the same way, but turn around, we wont open source code to be used, ( and sold) in Close Source Projects.
All we can do is, ask for a Linux native version, or, for open up the source.

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Re: A question for programmers

Post by ssj71 »

tramp wrote: What you talk about here is usually called "reverse engineering", and is, hard on the boarder to be illegal.
especially if it were automated, you'd have some lawyers knocking on your door, I bet.
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Re: A question for programmers

Post by glowrak guy »

briandc wrote:I've been thinking..
if softsynths are basically applications that create a sound source and send it through various processes,
then would it be possible to make an application that could "interpret" any (for example) VST softsynth's layout and reproduce it in a linux-based format? Wouldn't something like this be able to circumvent the need for Wine and all of the GUI-based problems of .dll/.exe instruments?

Being aware that Carla has a "native" GUI format for the synths that it hosts... something along those lines, but...

Anyone get what I'm trying to convey?
brian
If someone were to learn Native Instruments Reaktor, studying it's many ensembles, their modules and circuits,
they might be able to apply the concepts to cabbage, csound, alsa modular synth, or other linux tools.
(I can barely code a password, so it's only a suggestion based on popcorn :( )
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Re: A question for programmers

Post by briandc »

I'm not so convinced about the "legal" issues argument. No one can claim a corner on an ADSR envelope, or an LFO. And even if they could, a person might be able to make the same envelope or waveform with an app like Csound and no one would be able to claim that they "copied it."

I could imagine a copyright of a GUI layout, but I can't imagine someone taking someone else to court because they believe their waveform has been copied. (In fact, Roland coined the idea of a "supersaw" and other synths now incorporate that specific sound in their own synths.


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Re: A question for programmers

Post by ssj71 »

briandc wrote:I could imagine a copyright of a GUI layout
I'm no lawyer, so I really don't know about legal details. But I find it interesting that you find the UI would be copywritable but not the signal processing? In reality I think you'd probably not be able to match behavior close enough to have an issue. Its such a huge complex system to try to reverse that it would take forever to make a close enough clone that the original authors would take issue. I suppose they may not even have a legal case if your code is generated completely independently (and not decompiled or anything).

All that aside, is there some specific feature you are looking for? Especially with Uhe getting ported to linux there are some really powerful options out there now.
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Re: A question for programmers

Post by briandc »

I'm no lawyer, so I really don't know about legal details. But I find it interesting that you find the UI would be copywritable but not the signal processing? In reality I think you'd probably not be able to match behavior close enough to have an issue. Its such a huge complex system to try to reverse that it would take forever to make a close enough clone that the original authors would take issue. I suppose they may not even have a legal case if your code is generated completely independently (and not decompiled or anything).

All that aside, is there some specific feature you are looking for? Especially with Uhe getting ported to linux there are some really powerful options out there now.
I was thinking along the lines of certain graphical features that Apple offered in their iphones, such as enlarging images by separating/pinching fingers across the screen. Samsung got attacked for using that idea in their phones. :(

Anyway, no, I'm not looking for anything particular. There are so many (free) synths out there, that I'll be busy with them for life. Mine was just a kind of "technical" question, as I'm a non-programmer looking in from the outside! :D


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Re: A question for programmers

Post by tramp »

briandc wrote:I was thinking along the lines of certain graphical features that Apple offered in their iphones, such as enlarging images by separating/pinching fingers across the screen. Samsung got attacked for using that idea in their phones. :(
And, only what you see is protected by law??
00011001001001001000100101110000001¹0001001 do you see that??
do you understand what it mean??
Can you imagine that you are not allow to use it, or, publish it??
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