Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Programming applications for making music on Linux.

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GraysonPeddie
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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby GraysonPeddie » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:55 pm

I wonder if Steinberg VST requires a URI. What about DSSI?

A URI is just stupid unless VST requires it.
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falkTX
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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby falkTX » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:26 pm

j_e_f_f_g wrote:
falkTX wrote:When lilv scans that URI, it will interpret it as a local path "<file:///full/path/to/somenamehere>".


Well that;s just silly. If lilv is going to be essentially creating it's own URIs for plugins then:

1) It makes no sense to have a "unique" URI in the ttl file anyway.
2) lilv should assume responsibility for resolving the breakage it causes.

I'll make the change to accomodate lilv, but this is obviously a lilv design flaw.

This is absolutely NOT about lilv, or any other library that reads RDF. This is just how URIs are handled.

We have the same thing with URLs. For example:
"some-name" is not a valid URL, but "file:///some-name" and "http://some.name" is.
local URIs and URLs will always need to be interpreted in their complete form, usually by "protocol:fqdn".

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falkTX
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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby falkTX » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:36 pm

GraysonPeddie wrote:I wonder if Steinberg VST requires a URI. What about DSSI?

A URI is just stupid unless VST requires it.

No other plugin spec uses URI, or even turtle for plugin discovery.

LADSPA uses uniqueId (single big number), with alternatively filename + label.
DSSI, although based on LADSPA, ignores uniqueIds and uses basename + label.
VST is not well defined. In the beginning it used uniqueIds, but the practice has been slowly discontinued. Some hosts now even ignore such Ids.

no idea about AU, RTAS, AAX and others. I never studied them and they don't work on linux anyway.

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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby j_e_f_f_g » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:25 pm

falkTX wrote:This is absolutely NOT about lilv


Sure it is. Ardour doesn't monkey with the URI, and therefore loads/runs the plugin fine. lilv is broken by design. It's "interpreting" a URI when such an act can, and will in the case of a "local" URI, break the connection between the ttl and .so.

Ardour got it right. lilv got it wrong.

In any event, I just updated LV2 Create to work around this lilv bug.

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falkTX
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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby falkTX » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:48 pm

You know that Ardour uses lilv, right?
lilv is a library to handle LV2 turtle data, and afaik *all* current LV2 hosts use it.
(except zynjacku, but that's dead now).

Relying on local URIs for distributing plugins is just bad. As I explained, the actual URI will change if such plugin is installed in different places.
So a user might have <file:///usr/local/lv2/something.lv2/pluginname> and another <file:///usr/lv2/something.lv2/pluginname>.
This is just how URL/URI/URN/whatever works.

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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby j_e_f_f_g » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:55 am

New version. I renamed the Make page as "Save", and moved the compile/install buttons to a new "Compile" page. If you have the g++-multilib and gcc-multilib packages installed on your system, then you can create both 32-bit and 64-bit versions of your plugin (both LV2 and LADSPA) on one development system. Plus LV2 Create now makes a one-click multi-arch installer for your endusers. Click the Help button on the Compile page.

To enable the new features in your existing project, load your project. Go to the Save page and check the Makefile box. Click the Save button.

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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby falken » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:00 pm

hello guys and nice work Jeff!
Please, is there some LADSPA host/bridge to use LV2 plugins (by some generic mapping of GUI), for example in so great NonDAW as author dosnt like LV2 at all??
May be I am asking wrong, but sure you know what I mean. And also I am not linux guy in fact, yet...

Petr

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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby j_e_f_f_g » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:16 pm

falken wrote:is there some LADSPA host/bridge to use LV2 plugins


Not one i know of, but it's technically feasible.

But the source code differences between LV2 and LADSPA are trivial. If you have the LV2 source, the easiest thing to do is create an LADSPA from it. What LV2-only plugin are you interested in?

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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby ssj71 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:16 pm

falken wrote:hello guys and nice work Jeff!
Please, is there some LADSPA host/bridge to use LV2 plugins (by some generic mapping of GUI), for example in so great NonDAW as author dosnt like LV2 at all??
May be I am asking wrong, but sure you know what I mean. And also I am not linux guy in fact, yet...

Petr


The easiest user way to do it is use non-session-manager to link Carla plugin host to your session and host the lv2 plugin there.
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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby male » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:52 pm

ssj71 wrote:
falken wrote:hello guys and nice work Jeff!
Please, is there some LADSPA host/bridge to use LV2 plugins (by some generic mapping of GUI), for example in so great NonDAW as author dosnt like LV2 at all??
May be I am asking wrong, but sure you know what I mean. And also I am not linux guy in fact, yet...

Petr


The easiest user way to do it is use non-session-manager to link Carla plugin host to your session and host the lv2 plugin there.


FTR, I would also be interested in knowing what LV2 (FX) plugins people think they can't do without. I use zero LV2 plugins in my own work and don't find it to be the slightest hinderance.
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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby tatch » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:12 pm

male wrote:FTR, I would also be interested in knowing what LV2 (FX) plugins people think they can't do without. I use zero LV2 plugins in my own work and don't find it to be the slightest hinderance.


I like using lv2 plugins for their guis because I feel much more comfortable with visual feedback, especially seeing graphical EQs and compressor graphs.

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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby male » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:29 pm

tatch wrote:
male wrote:FTR, I would also be interested in knowing what LV2 (FX) plugins people think they can't do without. I use zero LV2 plugins in my own work and don't find it to be the slightest hinderance.


I like using lv2 plugins for their guis because I feel much more comfortable with visual feedback, especially seeing graphical EQs and compressor graphs.


I assume you're referring to the Calf plugins then. Well, I can't use logic against feelings. All I can say is that the the utility of such displays is as questionable as their accuracy is suspect ;-). I'd just like to note that there's no reason that a host couldn't provide such an interface for a ladspa plugin automatically if given the appropriate hints--without suffering from the integration and usability issues that plugin-provided GUIs entail.
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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby falken » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:29 pm

@ssj71: thanks, ya, it seems I understood the modularity already from many forum posts here, its OK

@male: I completly agree that host-generated UI is perfect, having good metadata/discoverability from plugin (not knowing details); only pro-engineers out of this nice little linux things often want really overloaded graphics, driven by marketing and fruities :-(

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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby tatch » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:02 am

male wrote:I assume you're referring to the Calf plugins then. Well, I can't use logic against feelings. All I can say is that the the utility of such displays is as questionable as their accuracy is suspect ;-).


I've actually wondered about the accuracy of the calf analyzer because its behavior seems a little strange, but the spectrum is useful as it is and better than *ahem* nothing. The calf compressor graph is accurate enough for me (it'd be even better if it provided a fabfilter-or-ableton-type graph). The calf EQ (and also eq10q, disappointingly) doesn't have a builtin analyzer that you can look to EQ off, but the way the knobs and buttons are organized is much more intuitive than most host-generated UIs I've seen (especially eq10q), and having the EQ laid out visually like that is helpful even without a builtin analyzer.

Also, if you mean to suggest that such graphical feedback is actually irrelevant and you "only need audio to edit audio", I disagree with you. For example, do you only need your eyes to accurately color correct video footage and stills? (The answer is no. Many editors use vectorgraphs that detail color information in the frame. Without that visual feedback it would take much longer to color correct as accurately as with it.) Try to find one relevant OS X/Windows DAW with a builtin EQ/compressor that does not offer some sort of visual information or frequency spectrum. The reason for that is not "because they want to smear their branding on everything", it's because visual feedback can be incredibly helpful and often time-saving. Here's a video demonstrating a very common scenario that would be much more difficult without being able to see a frequency spectrum.

I'd just like to note that there's no reason that a host couldn't provide such an interface for a ladspa plugin automatically if given the appropriate hints--without suffering from the integration and usability issues that plugin-provided GUIs entail.


I've seen people discussing this idea and I am entirely receptive to that possibility. But as far as I am aware it is still only talk; there are no hosts that currently do that and furthermore no plugins that try to. In the meanwhile, instead of waiting 3 years for that to happen and using feedback-deprived LADSPA plugins until then, I prefer the current LV2 offerings, even if they are lacking.

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Re: Sneak Preview: LV2 Create

Postby male » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:04 am

tatch wrote:
male wrote:I assume you're referring to the Calf plugins then. Well, I can't use logic against feelings. All I can say is that the the utility of such displays is as questionable as their accuracy is suspect ;-).


I've actually wondered about the accuracy of the calf analyzer because its behavior seems a little strange, but the spectrum is useful as it is and better than *ahem* nothing. The calf compressor graph is accurate enough for me (it'd be even better if it provided a fabfilter-or-ableton-type graph). The calf EQ (and also eq10q, disappointingly) doesn't have a builtin analyzer that you can look to EQ off, but the way the knobs and buttons are organized is much more intuitive than most host-generated UIs I've seen (especially eq10q), and having the EQ laid out visually like that is helpful even without a builtin analyzer.



Layout is poor because hints are lacking. This is more room for improvement in the plugin API--not the plugins themselves. I think plugin authors would be happy to do anything that would allow hosts to provide a better interface.

tatch wrote:Also, if you mean to suggest that such graphical feedback is actually irrelevant and you "only need audio to edit audio", I disagree with you. For example, do you only need your eyes to accurately color correct video footage and stills? (The answer is no. Many editors use vectorgraphs that detail color information in the frame. Without that visual feedback it would take much longer to color correct as accurately as with it.) Try to find one relevant OS X/Windows DAW with a builtin EQ/compressor that does not offer some sort of visual information or frequency spectrum. The reason for that is not "because they want to smear their branding on everything", it's because visual feedback can be incredibly helpful and often time-saving. Here's a video demonstrating a very common scenario that would be much more difficult without being able to see a frequency spectrum.


There are plenty of tools to do this. I use Fons' jaaa a lot myself. But FWIW, I never look at histograms when editing photos and I only look at frequency plots when testing DSP code, not when actually making music or mixing. I'd think this would be true of anyone without severe hearing (or vision) loss. If you're tweaking things that no one can hear or see, you're just killing time. A justification by the relevance of anything on OS X/Windows is by its nature flawed. Free software doesn't (shouldn't) suffer from the same perverted incentives that cause things to be the way they are on those platforms.

I'd just like to note that there's no reason that a host couldn't provide such an interface for a ladspa plugin automatically if given the appropriate hints--without suffering from the integration and usability issues that plugin-provided GUIs entail.


tatch wrote:I've seen people discussing this idea and I am entirely receptive to that possibility. But as far as I am aware it is still only talk; there are no hosts that currently do that and furthermore no plugins that try to. In the meanwhile, instead of waiting 3 years for that to happen and using feedback-deprived LADSPA plugins until then, I prefer the current LV2 offerings, even if they are lacking.


Well, that's not entirely true... Some plugins do try, but there's nothing in the standard about it and the way they have tried has been in several ways inadequate (the CAPS plugins suite, for example, uses a non-standard method of hinting at named control port groups). Obviously a host can't auto generate a GUI for anything, but the most common wants of a graphical EQ or compressor curve are well within the realm of possibility.
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