(Solved!) Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Practical tips for recording, editing, and mastering.

Moderators: MattKingUSA, khz

j_e_f_f_g
Established Member
Posts: 2032
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:48 pm
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by j_e_f_f_g »

TAERSH wrote:the Pulse Audio replacement (can't recall its name)
Poopwire, I think.

Because you can never have enough audio daemons crapping all over each other.

Author of BackupBand at https://sourceforge.net/projects/backupband/files/
My fans show their support by mentioning my name in their signature.

User avatar
bhilmers
Established Member
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:44 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by bhilmers »

GMaq wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 2:17 amAhhh the ever-present exception to the rule!
There is also TempleOS, but I'm sure that doesn't quite fit the definition of "distro." :)
User avatar
TAERSH
Established Member
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:48 pm
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by TAERSH »

Yes, I don't use passwords on my XP machine.
My GNU/Linux OS boots directly into the graphical desktop, so also no passwords required.

The all over the forum hated Puppy Studio also runs as root.
Before I created my own OS I was using an older version for some times and never experienced any Xruns.
Unfortunately the Puppy Studio developer quits its development.
Obviously I'm not as good to build an OS.

Yes, in a multi user environment it makes sense to have ROOT and USER users.
I'm not in a multi user environment and am the only person who has access to my computers.

Though, I will never change to operating systems that won't allow me to run as ROOT.
So, I have to live with these Xruns until I have enough money.
Perhaps I'm going to die before getting rich enough...
User avatar
Largos
Established Member
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:21 pm
Has thanked: 70 times
Been thanked: 179 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by Largos »

If you have an intransigent opinion of user privileges, which has resulted in you having a badly configured system, then it's not really a fault of anything else that you have worse performance than on your other machine which makes it harder for you to make bad changes.

Personally, I don't have root privileges on by default or a problem with xruns.
CrocoDuck
Established Member
Posts: 1133
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 6:12 pm
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by CrocoDuck »

TAERSH wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:18 pm I want, I need and I have to run my OS as ROOT! I'm the chief on my computer and I'm the only one who's using it. Running as user sucks!
TAERSH wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 1:49 am So, I thought GNU/Linux stands for Freedom?

Running as user bends me and has nothing to do with freedom.
To me running as user is obligation, pressure and restraint - NOT freedom.

I could accept running as user in a multi user environment.
But that's not the case on my computers.
TAERSH wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 10:53 am Though, I will never change to operating systems that won't allow me to run as ROOT.
Please understand that the following is a critique of your points and your points only and not of you as a person. I hope the discussion doesn't blow up but I need to raise this especially for the benefit of newbie users that might come across this thread.

Those points are unreasonable and based on ill understanding of user privilege on unix operating systems. There is no need to run every process as root on a unix machine to have at the same time complete control over the system. In fact, as many have pointed out, this is a recipe to run into issues in most cases.

A typical ordinary user on Linux has around as much privilege over the system as a Windows Administrator kind of user. Root cranks the privileges to full whack and allows the user to even nuke the system. This is why usage of root should be careful, and why running all process under root is discouraged: damage might even be accidental.

Running as ordinary user does not reduce your control over the system. You can always login into root with old fashioned "su" (if the root login is enabled) or with the more modern and typically preferred "sudo" to accomplish any operation that require root privilege. By running all the time as root you gain nothing, while gaining temporary root privilege to accomplish selected tasks is typically the safe way to maintain control over the system. Ironically, running everything under root exposes the system to unintended consequences of it, which in turn makes your system harder to control (from a technical standpoint).

As far as aI am aware there aren't Linux distributions that do not allow root. The root login might be locked on modern systems that have sudo. You can unlock it with simple commands. See here for an example.

Of course, it is your right and prerogative to run your system in any way you intend, including as root all the time. This should be done paired with a good technical understanding of the consequences of it, how to recognise, trap, and fix eventual issues that might arise. This is why I want to make this point for eventual newbie lurkers: running continuously as root is not advised on most distribution, for many reasons (which include security as well) and should not be attempted unless there is a compelling reason for it, paired with good technical understanding of Linux. A user running their machine in this way is expected to encounter issues and know how to solve them.

As for the original questions you posed in your first post, I can sum up my points as follows:
  • ALSA is not bad, but I feel like something like the DLL design described by Paul Davis would be a good thing for it, and would make audio way more stable at the price of a slightly higher latency. If there is enough pressure for it to be implemented it might happen. That point was brought about in 2012, there might be even more modern technologies today that ALSA perhaps could adopt.
  • User space sound server (JACK/PulseAudio/...): would be nice if there was one that works well for pro audio and anything else. This would mimic macOS, apparently. Will PipeWire be that? As I said, not holding my breath and definitely there will be rough edges. Unfortunately, I cannot predict the future and tell you if one day the Linux audio stack will have nailed the best possible implementation, and when that day will be.
  • Is the state of Linux audio really that bad? I think not, I am overall satisfied and I have been satisfied since 2009. That said, mileage might vary. I am sorry @TAERSH that it is not quite working for you.
User avatar
TAERSH
Established Member
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:48 pm
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by TAERSH »

@CrocoDuck
I know all of this.

I'm NOT about security, as one can't destroy my OS. It's stored into multiple squashfs files and runs completely in RAM. The only way to destroy my OS is to format its partition/hard drive. Whatever I may do wrong to nuke the system, it's all gone after pressing the reset button on the computer. I can't damage my system simply by accident - except formatting the partition. If that would happen, I install a new boot loader, and copy over a backup from external USB HD. Takes a few minutes only and I'm back to use the OS. No need to do all the tweaks and installs that would be necessary after a fresh install of every other OS.

In Windows XP I'm also able to nuke the system by running as administrator, so there's not really a difference. Except: if I would remove e.g. all .dll files, it won't start anymore unless I do a new fresh install. If I would remove e.g. all .so files from my OS, it wouldn't harm anything. Just pressing the reset button and it boots fine, just like being a fresh install.

So, all that security stuff that most of you are dependent on doesn't touch me and therefor I don't care about. I don't have reason to be the coward in my OS. I know what I'm doing and in general I'm doing things my way - different to almost everyone.
merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by merlyn »

TAERSH wrote: In Windows XP I'm also able to nuke the system by running as administrator, so there's not really a difference.
No, that's not correct. It's a long time since I saw an XP box but ... XP had 'system file protection' IIRC. There are some things 'Administrator' can't do on XP. There's a user on XP called 'System' and that's the equivalent of root on Linux. So you're not logged in as root when you're using XP.

'Administrator' on Windows is a half-baked way of dealing with the problem "How do these hopeless incompetents install software?" :lol:
User avatar
TAERSH
Established Member
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:48 pm
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by TAERSH »

I'm able to unlock each file that's used by the system and therefor being locked (which avoids deletion).

But, hehe, I'm NOT going to check this by doing removal of system files. :wink:

XP was installed in 2009 and it's still as fast as on the first day.
I never was and I never will be online with that computer running XP.
merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by merlyn »

TAERSH wrote:Image
That's the lowest DSP load I have ever seen -- 0.0098%. That would suggest to me you are using a huge buffer. If the buffer is big and you're still getting xruns there's something far wrong. As a guide when you start JACK with no apps running a DSP load of less than 5% is good -- above that and the buffer is probably too low for your system.

I've never tried using squashfs and running everything as root. This may be the problem. To find out boot up AVL-MXE and see if you get xruns. If you don't get xruns with AVL-MXE then the squashfs/root thing is no good for audio.
User avatar
TAERSH
Established Member
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:48 pm
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by TAERSH »

I've never tried using squashfs and running everything as root. This may be the problem. To find out boot up AVL-MXE and see if you get xruns. If you don't get xruns with AVL-MXE then the squashfs/root thing is no good for audio.
I'm using 44100 / 1024 / 2.

The old Puppy Studio (by I0wt3ch) also runs everything as root and sits in squashfs files. Can't recall ever experiencing Xruns. When I find some time next week, I will try to get Qtractor installed into AVL-MXE and then checking for Xruns. This will be a lot of work, as I would have to setup AVL-MXE pretty similar to my OS - related to the VST and WinVST plugins I'm using. Need to install AVL-MXE to external USB HD first. My first go on AVL-MXE was live booting from USB flash drive.

Will report then...
CrocoDuck
Established Member
Posts: 1133
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 6:12 pm
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by CrocoDuck »

TAERSH wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:58 pm The old Puppy Studio (by I0wt3ch) also runs everything as root and sits in squashfs files.
I do remember Puppy Studio doing pretty good 10+ years ago in terms of performance. That reminds me of Remix OS as well, another discontinued distribution (some info survives here). Unfortunately I don't have many more remarks, or additional tips that can be useful. However, I do remember those distros at the end of the kernel 2.X era to be very good (Tango studio being another example, but that was not a Live one). I always felt there was a "discontinuity" in performance as kernel 3.X was released, but this is my subjective feeling, never did any quantitative assessment.

Just reminiscing. Let us know how your tests go.
User avatar
TAERSH
Established Member
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:48 pm
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by TAERSH »

Ok.

Last night I booted my AVL-MXE Live Boot USB Stick 2nd time to install AVL-MXE to external USB hard drive. When booting from that hard drive I get lots of BUG messages: viewtopic.php?p=133322#p133322

The conky also disappeard from the desktop. After installing Qtractor I got lots of error messages when scanning for installed VST plugins. Scanning for VST3 and LV2 plugins went fine. When trying to load Surge VST3 version Qtractor crashes when closing the Surge GUI. Currently I'm heavily in doubt I could get Qtractor running in AVL-MXE like I'm used to without spending a huge amount of time.

But: I got already a first Xrun in AVL-MXE when Surge VST3 plugin was loaded into the track. So, I will give up on this, continue running my own created ArtStudio64 and start playing in a Lottery. :wink: :lol:
merlyn
Established Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by merlyn »

One difference between Linux and Windows audio is that Linux is quite open about when it's going wrong. In commercial software it's not really in e.g. Steinberg's interests to say "Cubase is going wrong" whereas Linux reports and logs xruns.

Did you hear or see the xrun? To make a meaningful comparison you would have to try Surge on your XP box and I can't see that working out xrun free :). It could be that your XP performs better because the software is all lighter. The heaviness of modern synths was a topic on the Saturday video chat. Modern synths have nice looking GUIs which use resources and can result in xruns on old hardware. @briandc demoed a few old synths that have very basic GUIs and these ran without xruns whereas Vitalium was a strain on the hardware.

My experience of Windows 10 audio comes from setting up a Surface Pro for a friend. It's for live use so low latency is important and we got it there in the end without xruns, although Cubase doesn't report xruns so that was done by ear. Xrun free unless a control on a plugin is adjusted and then ... well you don't need a report to know it's xrunning. That would seem to me to be interrupts -- the touchscreen has a high priority and adjusting a plugin GUI takes priority over audio. Being a practical fellow my friend's solution to this was -- don't adjust plugins live. On Windows 10 there is absolutely nothing that can be done about this. Microsoft's attitude is take it or leave it.

If you try Windows 10 audio you may also run into the horror that is DPC latency. This is a rather technical way of describing very bad drivers that hog the CPU for too long. Look up ACPI.sys and see the numerous Dell laptops that are useless for real time audio because of a bad driver. Dell also subscribe to the take it or leave it school of customer support.

If money is no object get a Mac :lol:
User avatar
briandc
Established Member
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:17 pm
Location: Italy
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 28 times
Contact:

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by briandc »

I second @merlyn. From what I've seen, xruns are often a problem on *any* operating system if the GUI is very involved. There are some really beautiful synths for linux that have very "basic" UIs but which are awesome in terms of sound (imo, of course).
In a very real sense, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Graphic interfaces (and the coding language used to make them) can have an enormous impact on the audio side of a synth.


brian
Have your PC your way: use linux!
My sound synthesis biome: http://www.linuxsynths.com
User avatar
GMaq
Established Member
Posts: 2774
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:42 pm
Has thanked: 520 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Windows Audio vs. Linux Audio

Post by GMaq »

TAERSH wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 8:45 pm Ok.

Last night I booted my AVL-MXE Live Boot USB Stick 2nd time to install AVL-MXE to external USB hard drive. When booting from that hard drive I get lots of BUG messages: viewtopic.php?p=133322#p133322

The conky also disappeard from the desktop. After installing Qtractor I got lots of error messages when scanning for installed VST plugins. Scanning for VST3 and LV2 plugins went fine. When trying to load Surge VST3 version Qtractor crashes when closing the Surge GUI. Currently I'm heavily in doubt I could get Qtractor running in AVL-MXE like I'm used to without spending a huge amount of time.

But: I got already a first Xrun in AVL-MXE when Surge VST3 plugin was loaded into the track. So, I will give up on this, continue running my own created ArtStudio64 and start playing in a Lottery. :wink: :lol:
Hi,

I answered the about the bug messages in the other thread, simply installing a non-RT Kernel should fix that and the User Manual has more info on Page 25. You may want to run Wine-Staging and run LinVST before starting any DAW's and doing any Plugin scans as detailed in this video:

https://youtu.be/JME0E7ooP18
Post Reply