Automation?

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jonetsu
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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:37 pm

Be sure that you can do a lot in Ardour/Mixbus regarding automation. You can do a lot of creativity, no problem. The shortcomings were mentioned for discussion, for comparison. They are nice features to have and they open the door to even more creativity. Although the current possibilities can be used quite a lot. It's all about imagination and creativity and being able to do stuff with what you have. That can go a long way in any circumstance.

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42low
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Re: Automation?

Postby 42low » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:39 pm

Michael Willis wrote:I know you're doing more traditional guitar band stuff, but if you ever get into electronica, a lot of synths allow you to use automation to modulate their parameters. I've heard plenty of electronic music that over time changes a high pass filter or low pass filter (or one of many other synth parameters). Zynaddsubfx has a "midi learn" feature that allows you to bind a number of it parameters to the midi CC automation.

I know Michael. The reason that i mentioned LMMS already. :wink:

Traditional instruments indeed. Not much more need for automation than some slight tricks.
Btw tricks i already did. Like mentioned, lowered guitar to facilitate vocals more i already did, but manual.
So not that much new, mostly easier. And yeah, some new features to be used as small fun stricks within a project.

BTW, i sometimes do some electronic/synth projects too. :wink:

jonetsu
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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:45 pm

With guitar you can modulate delay, start the delay there and stop it there, for basics. Reduce the delay in the verse, open it up in the chorus. Or the reverb. Or automate the send to an FX. Send more in the break. Open the cabinet simulation. Open up the high EQ a bit to add more clear notes during certain passages. The possibilities are endless. Duplicate a guitar track, skew it by a tiny bit, automate the fader so that it comes in during the final chorus and automate the pan so each one goes a bit on its own side.

And then on top of that if a more drastic change is required you can mult part of the track.

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42low
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Re: Automation?

Postby 42low » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:53 pm

jonetsu wrote:With guitar you can modulate delay, start the delay there and stop it there, for basics. Reduce the delay in the verse, open it up in the chorus. Or the reverb. Or automate the send to an FX. Send more in the break. Open the cabinet simulation. Open up the high EQ a bit to add more clear notes during certain passages. The possibilities are endless. Duplicate a guitar track, skew it by a tiny bit, automate the fader so that it comes in during the final chorus and automate the pan so each one goes a bit on its own side.


I know. I now understand even more.
But that's not that much for me for guitar as i have several great amps and all kinds off real-time effects. At the end i want to mic-grab "play" so i don't have to simulate it with plugins and/or automation.
For me it will be nice to use on background sounds and effects mostly. And i think i'm going to try to use it on vocals, but some plugins i use for that already have some automated effects in themselves. And next to that perhaps some other fun simple features, like volume and so one.

jonetsu wrote:The shortcomings were mentioned for discussion, for comparison.

And very appreciated that you've mentioned them. Eventually it will help everyone to choose his way to use it (or not).
I personally will keep it in mind for sure, but like i said enough to start with within Ardour to which i don't like to say goodbye to.
Very interesting subject! Keep talking you all, so i can learn more about it. :mrgreen: (you all know i will help back if i can)

Cheers back. Proost, like we say here.
Last edited by 42low on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rghvdberg
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Re: Automation?

Postby rghvdberg » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:33 pm

Take a nice synth track.
Duplicate track.
Pan each track hard left / right.
Take a synth parameter, for example filter cutoff.
Modulate it slightly, random during the track.
Do the same for the duplicate track. Random! Don't copy the automation.

Bam super wide synth..

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Re: Automation?

Postby lilith » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:13 pm

sysrqer wrote:Having to set write/touch for every single parameter (at least as far as I know there is no global mode), editing is fiddly. It's just over complicated, when you look at the way that programs like ableton live or bitwig can deal with it ardour is horrible to use. It's fine if you need to do a fade in or out but getting in depth is annoying. Having to change tools to make a selection and then change that selection isn't ideal, you can develop reasonably quick ways to work but there's a lot of unnecessary steps. From conversations with Paul I gather that he thinks the whole automation system needs an overhaul but probably won't happen any time soon.


Yes, somehow it feels fiddly. You have to exactly hit the envelope and it feels much smoother in e.g. Reaper.

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Re: Automation?

Postby tavasti » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:25 pm

jonetsu wrote:
tavasti wrote:If you want to have some wave shape, then you should be using LFO, not automation. And sure, you could use automation to adjust your LFO (haven't done this in ardour, and don't know if it is possible there)


Sure. Where are the LFOs in Ardour again ?

Indeed, you are right, there is no. I am quite amazed :-o
Linux veteran & Novice musician

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sysrqer
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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:24 pm

tavasti wrote:
jonetsu wrote:
tavasti wrote:If you want to have some wave shape, then you should be using LFO, not automation. And sure, you could use automation to adjust your LFO (haven't done this in ardour, and don't know if it is possible there)


Sure. Where are the LFOs in Ardour again ?

Indeed, you are right, there is no. I am quite amazed :-o

This is the main reason I thought I would never break away from Renoise, the modulation is so easy but deep and yet ardour can do nothing at all in that way...at least not in an obvious way. I've recently moved over to reaper and I'm not looking back at all, the fact that you can modulate any effect parameter with any signal is amazing, vocal reverbs and delays that duck when there is singing and then opens up when it stops because the wet is modulated by the incoming signal..and things like that are such fun and literally takes a few seconds to set up. And the envelope/automation tools are better than ardour and renoise put together.

lilith wrote:
sysrqer wrote:Having to set write/touch for every single parameter (at least as far as I know there is no global mode), editing is fiddly. It's just over complicated, when you look at the way that programs like ableton live or bitwig can deal with it ardour is horrible to use. It's fine if you need to do a fade in or out but getting in depth is annoying. Having to change tools to make a selection and then change that selection isn't ideal, you can develop reasonably quick ways to work but there's a lot of unnecessary steps. From conversations with Paul I gather that he thinks the whole automation system needs an overhaul but probably won't happen any time soon.


Yes, somehow it feels fiddly. You have to exactly hit the envelope and it feels much smoother in e.g. Reaper.

Yeah, it's a shame because I think it really lets an otherwise amazing program down. Maybe there is a knack that I haven't discovered yet but I find it very time consuming to do anything with automation.

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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:26 pm

Renoise is certainly great in many aspects. I did one piece with it about 2 years ago. I listened to it recently by coincidence and I can still see the hex numbers and the fast scrolling of multitrack data and the totally square rhythm. Laborious. For someone into trackers it might be otherwise but I find it totally counter intuitive. Redux on the other is great and I certainly do not mind programming a beat or a riff. But a whole piece ?

For me it's not Renoise, it's Bitwig. It has a totally awesome modulation system. And it feels natural. For creation that's great. For mixing and mastering, it is still Mixbus32C (Ardour). I find Bitwig lousy at doing any real mixing.

"... vocal reverbs and delays that duck when there is singing and then opens up when it stops because the wet is modulated by the incoming signal..."

Hmmm, yes. Side-chaining, isn't it ?

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Re: Automation?

Postby lilith » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:31 pm

But what I like in Ardour is the in track midi editor. This is much faster than a seperate window imo. Copying automization on the other hand is arghhhh :/

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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:50 pm

The MIDI track editor in Ardour/Mixbus prevents me from using it. If not I could from time to time when it's down at the mixing stage, add some synth or something, but I find the MIDI track editor quite cumbersome to work with. Just before getting Bitwig I started to play some synth in Ardour and to edit MIDI. I recall it that time as being fastidious. Not as fastidious as doing a full song in Renoise, but overly involved nevertheless.

I consider Ardour/Mixbus as a mixing/mastering console so I'm OK if I don't use MIDI instruments in there. It's no drawback at all.

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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:55 pm

jonetsu wrote:Renoise is certainly great in many aspects. I did one piece with it about 2 years ago. I listened to it recently by coincidence and I can still see the hex numbers and the fast scrolling of multitrack data and the totally square rhythm. Laborious. For someone into trackers it might be otherwise but I find it totally counter intuitive. Redux on the other is great and I certainly do not mind programming a beat or a riff. But a whole piece ?

Yeah it's not for everyone. I came to linux thinking I could run ableton in wine but that didn't work as well as I wanted so I started to look at what linux could offer. Ardour didn't have any midi at the time, there was no bitwig. I tried qtractor but audio editing was pretty basic, I tried lmms but I didn't like it. Renoise came along at that point and could offer everything I needed but in a strange way. I do crave to work in piano rolls for melodic stuff though. I would miss it a lot if I had to move away completely.

jonetsu wrote:For me it's not Renoise, it's Bitwig. It has a totally awesome modulation system. And it feels natural. For creation that's great. For mixing and mastering, it is still Mixbus32C (Ardour). I find Bitwig lousy at doing any real mixing.

Bitwig is amazing but coming from an ableton background I didn't find it as intuitive, to a level where it frustrated me. I'm sure that's just me and I could become very comfortable with it with some practice but I haven't been sold on it. It should tick all the boxes for me, it's very much what I am used to, but somehow it felt awkward. That said, I was quite comfortable writing in renoise so anything probably would be weird after that. I'm not really a fan of mixbus but I don't tend to export and then mix, it's more like writing and mixing is the same process - I'm often changing sounds and arrangement at the mix stage. I want to change this though, reaper has given me a sight of mixing stuff in audio in an easy to use daw so I might start drawing a line in renoise and taking in to reaper. At that stage mixbus interests me a lot but I have never worked in a way to use it as it should be.

jonetsu wrote:"... vocal reverbs and delays that duck when there is singing and then opens up when it stops because the wet is modulated by the incoming signal..."

Hmmm, yes. Side-chaining, isn't it ?

Yes pretty much, that particular example can be done in ardour with the pin connections but that is just an example I use frequently. The great thing is that you don't need to worry about whether the plug in has a sidechain input, anything can be a target for modulation regardless.

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Re: Automation?

Postby protozone » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:09 pm

rghvdberg wrote:Take a nice synth track.
Duplicate track.
Pan each track hard left / right.
Take a synth parameter, for example filter cutoff.
Modulate it slightly, random during the track.
Do the same for the duplicate track. Random! Don't copy the automation.

Bam super wide synth..


Thanks! That's a great technique, and one that doesn't make my brain go numb with boredom or frustration.
I hardly use any automation either, but I really should.

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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:59 pm

sysrqer wrote:I'm not really a fan of mixbus but I don't tend to export and then mix, it's more like writing and mixing is the same process - I'm often changing sounds and arrangement at the mix stage.


I like changing hats. The hat of a creator/musician then a break and a change of hat for the mixer hat. Seeing the exported tracks as a mixer would see them, with the creativity of the mixer. What can we do with these tracks ?

But then it also gets blurred as there are musically creative modifications done once the mix has begun. But always there's a line, a real line to cross which consists of changing DAW from Mixbus to Bitwig. After modifications are done to the piece, tracks modified, tracks added, etc... the line is there again: exporting the tracks to the mixer.

Recently I heard or I read somewhere, I don't recall where, there was a mixer guy saying well, in the times of tape we had to rewind the tape so that was about 2-3 minutes off time shooting the breeze, doing not much, and that gave us little breaks here and there. He was saying that today people spend way too much time without any breaks in their DAWs. So for me, this line to cross is like a refreshing thing, moving from one domain to the other, from creation to mixing (and further down to mastering). Wearing each hat I think about the delivery to the other hat. Will the mixing hat like to deal with that rather edgy track or should I fix it now ? Will the mastering hat like it to get a mix that gives almost no room to work with ? 8)

Each stage output is some form of package.

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42low
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Re: Automation?

Postby 42low » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:02 am

lilith wrote:But what I like in Ardour is the in track midi editor.

I like that midi track editor in Ardour too.
But what happens many times is that i mostly need more miditracks in a project, and then it's easier to grab back on LMMS in which then i do all the midi.
Eventually in practice i only use the Ardour midi for some individual additional sounds.
To me LMMS is a great proggie too to use next to Ardour. I ♥ LMMS too.


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