Automation?

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Re: Automation?

Postby lilith » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:49 am

Just discovered yesterday that reaper also has an in track midi editor, which is somewhat reduced compared to the regular one.

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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:42 am

lilith wrote:Just discovered yesterday that reaper also has an in track midi editor, which is somewhat reduced compared to the regular one.

How do you access that?

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Re: Automation?

Postby tavasti » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:44 pm

jonetsu wrote:Be sure that you can do a lot in Ardour/Mixbus regarding automation. You can do a lot of creativity, no problem. The shortcomings were mentioned for discussion, for comparison. They are nice features to have and they open the door to even more creativity. Although the current possibilities can be used quite a lot. It's all about imagination and creativity and being able to do stuff with what you have. That can go a long way in any circumstance.

Would it be possible to use some external program / plugin to do LFO? With OSC you can do something, but I suppose everything pretty fast is impossible, but for really slow LFO's that might work. For filtering, is there any lowpass filter plugin with built-in LFO?
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Re: Automation?

Postby lilith » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:43 pm

sysrqer wrote:
lilith wrote:Just discovered yesterday that reaper also has an in track midi editor, which is somewhat reduced compared to the regular one.

How do you access that?


Click on the midi track and hit "e". :mrgreen: On the top right you'll have some basic tools.

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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:19 pm

lilith wrote:
sysrqer wrote:
lilith wrote:Just discovered yesterday that reaper also has an in track midi editor, which is somewhat reduced compared to the regular one.

How do you access that?


Click on the midi track and hit "e". :mrgreen: On the top right you'll have some basic tools.

Oh nice, thanks for the tip!

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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:40 pm

tavasti wrote: Would it be possible to use some external program / plugin to do LFO? With OSC you can do something, but I suppose everything pretty fast is impossible, but for really slow LFO's that might work. For filtering, is there any lowpass filter plugin with built-in LFO?


Yes, it's absolutely possible. For instance, many Melda Production plugins have modulators built-in. These modulators include LFOs, and also follower, envelope, and such. As for filters, there's the WOW2 filter that includes modulators. If currently using it at the moment.

At 03:07 in the following overview from CM the modulation aspects of WOW2 are well covered:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XapIT2XSPmg

Cheers.

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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:50 am

The TAL filters have LFOs.

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Re: Automation?

Postby tavasti » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:29 am

tavasti wrote:Would it be possible to use some external program / plugin to do LFO? With OSC you can do something, but I suppose everything pretty fast is impossible, but for really slow LFO's that might work.

I did some experimenting with oscdump and oscsend commands. Put Mixbus sending position both time and beat+bar format:
ded9e5b6.e74aa970 /position/bbt s "001|01|0014"
ded9e5b6.e74b72c4 /position/time s "00:00:00.005"
ded9e5b7.00b3b320 /position/bbt s "001|01|0269"
ded9e5b7.00b662fd /position/time s "00:00:00.101"
ded9e5b7.1a16d6dc /position/bbt s "001|01|0538"
ded9e5b7.1a187a4a /position/time s "00:00:00.202"
ded9e5b7.337d6301 /position/bbt s "001|01|0807"
ded9e5b7.337f498c /position/time s "00:00:00.304"
ded9e5b7.4ce368f0 /position/bbt s "001|01|1062"
ded9e5b7.4ce46498 /position/time s "00:00:00.400"
ded9e5b7.668986fc /position/bbt s "001|01|1332"
ded9e5b7.668b3b31 /position/time s "00:00:00.501"
ded9e5b7.7ff151e6 /position/bbt s "001|01|1601"
ded9e5b7.7ff27fe4 /position/time s "00:00:00.602"
ded9e5b7.995b4677 /position/bbt s "001|01|1856"
ded9e5b7.995cb790 /position/time s "00:00:00.698"
ded9e5b7.b2bedfa3 /position/bbt s "001|02|0205"

So there you could get where you are (0.1s intervals), and then sending your control values based on that. Most likely for fast and time-accurate, you would need to calculate time in that external software, and send values timed with internal clock instead of given feedback. Or if you just need to have some static lfo running for some parameter all the time, then put it just running.

Tried this with success:
while true; do for i in {0..70} {69..1} ; do oscsend localhost 3819 /strip/plugin/parameter iiif 1 3 3 $i; sleep 0.01; done ; done

Without that sleep, it is fast, and here we are dealing with shell, so getting fast moving LFO with external program is definitely possible. Getting it to be in perfect sync may be much harder.

Possible softwares for doing fancy automation:
http://kymatica.com/Software/AlgoScore
http://scatter.nyc/duration/

And the docs: http://manual.ardour.org/using-control- ... -with-osc/
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Re: Automation?

Postby tavasti » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:37 pm

jonetsu wrote:And there are no predefined waves in Ardour, or automated way of creating wave patterns. You'd like to quickly put a sine wave, then you have to draw it. And once drawn, there's no way to change it's frequency, it's shape, etc...

After studying bit more I think I've found my way to do LFO's in ardour / mixbus: edit with vi!

1) In Mixbus /Ardour:
- select automation you want to deal with
- select mode as 'touch'
- put some automation values to points where you want to start, stop, change
2) Save your file and quit
3) make backup copy of your songname.ardour file (as a backups, in case you break the file)
4) Open ardour file with your text editor
5) Find string 'Touch'
6) make your edits

For part 6, some script creating values might be handy. Here is my example:

- Created file, and got datapoints:

277590 46.366779327392578
416386 83.077545166015625

I want to have two full sine waves between those time points 277590 and 416386. Distance is 138796 and we rotate 720 degrees, so we travel 192 points/degree. Want to have baselinevalue 40, and have +-30 variation over that. Let's do 25 degree steps. In command line, that will be:
i=0; while [ $i -lt 730 ] ; do val=$(echo "40.0+30*s($i*(3.14159/180))" | bc -l); echo "$((277590+$i*192)) $val"; i=$(($i+25)); done


Paste that output to your editor, save, and open file in Mixbus/Ardour. With your gui you can move datapoints, select region of points and paste them to new place, so that you don't need to edit huge amount of lines by hand.

------------

Here is few more examples of waveforms:

From start to timepoint 2220723, I wanted to have 6 sine waves (2160 degrees), baseline raising from 20 to 80, sine wave height 20 units.

i=0; while [ $i -lt 2160 ] ; do val=$(echo "20.0+$i*60/2160+20*s($i*(3.14159/180))" | bc -l); echo "$(($i*1028)) $val"; i=$(($i+25)); done

From start to timepoint 2220723, I wanted to have 6 sine waves (2160 degrees), baseline 50, sine wave height raising from 0 to 50 units.

i=0; while [ $i -lt 2160 ] ; do val=$(echo "50+$i*50/2160*s($i*(3.14159/180))" | bc -l); echo "$(($i*1028)) $val"; i=$(($i+25)); done


Edit: Timepoints are most likely 48000/s, so most likely this will be 0.5hz wave:
i=0; while [ $i -lt 760 ] ; do val=$(echo "50+30*s($i*(3.14159/180))" | bc -l); echo "$(($i*266)) $val"; i=$(($i+25)); done
Last edited by tavasti on Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:35 pm

Nothing like linux to make things quick and easy :D

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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:54 pm

- How do you modulate your sounds ?
- Simple, I use emacs.

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Re: Automation?

Postby tavasti » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:32 am

jonetsu wrote:- How do you modulate your sounds ?
- Simple, I use emacs.

Yes, for basic users. Advanced users will write perl/python/something script to do it. :P

In reality, how often you have needed LFO for automation? If cases are rare, then even this approach works. With your editor, add desired waveform, and then copy it multiple times in mixbus/ardour to get desired values. I would feel this approach is still handier than external program dealing with automation.

Bonus waveform: 0.5 hz sine, base 50, amplitude change during 10 wavelength from 0 to 50 and back to 0, smooth change in amplitude (first half of sine wave as modulator). For this kind of shape, you would need 0.05 hz LFO modulating 0.5 hz LFO, so I suppose that is not available on most of the DAWs?

i=0; while [ $i -lt 3600 ] ; do val=$(echo "50+50*s($i*(3.14159/180))*s($i/20*3.14159/180)" | bc -l); echo "$(($i*266)) $val"; i=$(($i+15)); done


Maybe this might be worth writing some tutorial, or creating video?
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Re: Automation?

Postby barbouze » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:29 pm

Advanced users could also use OSC and/or MIDI messages coming from Pure Data (from basic LFOs to Context Sequencer which looks amazing!) or even Iannix but maybe this belongs to another topic. At least those are great examples of how modular is our favorite OS and how deep you can go in automation. :D

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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:01 pm

tavasti wrote: Yes, for basic users. Advanced users will write perl/python/something script to do it. :P


Ah ah. :)

tavasti wrote: In reality, how often you have needed LFO for automation? If cases are rare, then even this approach works.


I used to think who needs modulation ? Then it started to change slowly as I realized that all the synth sounds I like much are 'moving' in one way or the other, and that was not tremolo not vibrato or Leslie rotation, it was much more intricate and it gave the sounds a life. Then Bitwig introduced their modulators and that has gave the additional push to adopt them.

I would say that modulators are often essential to making '3D' music, they are an important factor. They can take many shapes. Some are envelopes, some are LFOs, sidechains, some are morphing sounds, etc...

See perhaps this short 3-minutes Bitwig demonstration of a small part of their modulators:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbJKjwwEIGk

Any VST parameter exposed by a plugin can be modulated using any of the 29 available modulators.

Cheers.

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Re: Automation?

Postby tavasti » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:11 am

jonetsu wrote:I would say that modulators are often essential to making '3D' music, they are an important factor. They can take many shapes. Some are envelopes, some are LFOs, sidechains, some are morphing sounds, etc...

See perhaps this short 3-minutes Bitwig demonstration of a small part of their modulators:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbJKjwwEIGk

Indeed, looks convincing. Sure everything is doable with plain automation, but amount of work would be huge, for example those ADSR envelopes for every note :-o
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