Automation?

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lilith
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Re: Automation?

Postby lilith » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:55 pm

I don't know if Reaper can do this, but I think it's not fair to compare Ardour with Live in this respect. I'll check later if this is possible in Reaper.
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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:55 pm

Everyone should watch unfa's video about the shortcomings of ardour, he talks a lot about the problems it has with automation.

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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:59 pm

lilith wrote:I don't know if Reaper can do this, but I think it's not fair to compare Ardour with Live in this respect. I'll check later if this is possible in Reaper.

Reaper can. Why is it not fair? They have different approaches to automation and one is light years ahead of the other. There's no reason ardour could not function in a similar way.
Not sure why Reaper would be allowed to be compared but it, again, is way ahead and much easier to use for doing lots of automation (global modes, bezier curves, lfo shapes, and scaling/offsetting).

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Re: Automation?

Postby lilith » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:16 pm

sysrqer wrote:
lilith wrote:I don't know if Reaper can do this, but I think it's not fair to compare Ardour with Live in this respect. I'll check later if this is possible in Reaper.

Reaper can. Why is it not fair? They have different approaches to automation and one is light years ahead of the other. There's no reason ardour could not function in a similar way.
Not sure why Reaper would be allowed to be compared but it, again, is way ahead and much easier to use for doing lots of automation (global modes, bezier curves, lfo shapes, and scaling/offsetting).


Reaper and Ardour can be compared , but Live or Bitwig is different.
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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:24 pm

lilith wrote:
Reaper and Ardour can be compared , but Live or Bitwig is different.


Why? They can both act in a linear fashion the same as ardour and reaper. The fact that Live and Bitwig have live functionality doesn't make a lot of difference to the way automation works.

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Re: Automation?

Postby Michael Willis » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:35 pm

I know you're doing more traditional guitar band stuff, but if you ever get into electronica, a lot of synths allow you to use automation to modulate their parameters. I've heard plenty of electronic music that over time changes a high pass filter or low pass filter (or one of many other synth parameters). Zynaddsubfx has a "midi learn" feature that allows you to bind a number of it parameters to the midi CC automation.

Also, in my virtual orchestration, I used automation to control the "attack" of some of my tracks, like in a woodwind track some of the notes have a definite "tongue" sound and other notes are more smooth.

For your guitar work, you might try using automation in conjunction with effects, like guitarix or rakarrack. I believe that their parameters can be controlled by automation, so for example you could make the distortion or other effects change throughout the piece of music.

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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:37 pm

Be sure that you can do a lot in Ardour/Mixbus regarding automation. You can do a lot of creativity, no problem. The shortcomings were mentioned for discussion, for comparison. They are nice features to have and they open the door to even more creativity. Although the current possibilities can be used quite a lot. It's all about imagination and creativity and being able to do stuff with what you have. That can go a long way in any circumstance.

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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:45 pm

With guitar you can modulate delay, start the delay there and stop it there, for basics. Reduce the delay in the verse, open it up in the chorus. Or the reverb. Or automate the send to an FX. Send more in the break. Open the cabinet simulation. Open up the high EQ a bit to add more clear notes during certain passages. The possibilities are endless. Duplicate a guitar track, skew it by a tiny bit, automate the fader so that it comes in during the final chorus and automate the pan so each one goes a bit on its own side.

And then on top of that if a more drastic change is required you can mult part of the track.

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Re: Automation?

Postby rghvdberg » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:33 pm

Take a nice synth track.
Duplicate track.
Pan each track hard left / right.
Take a synth parameter, for example filter cutoff.
Modulate it slightly, random during the track.
Do the same for the duplicate track. Random! Don't copy the automation.

Bam super wide synth..

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Re: Automation?

Postby lilith » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:13 pm

sysrqer wrote:Having to set write/touch for every single parameter (at least as far as I know there is no global mode), editing is fiddly. It's just over complicated, when you look at the way that programs like ableton live or bitwig can deal with it ardour is horrible to use. It's fine if you need to do a fade in or out but getting in depth is annoying. Having to change tools to make a selection and then change that selection isn't ideal, you can develop reasonably quick ways to work but there's a lot of unnecessary steps. From conversations with Paul I gather that he thinks the whole automation system needs an overhaul but probably won't happen any time soon.


Yes, somehow it feels fiddly. You have to exactly hit the envelope and it feels much smoother in e.g. Reaper.
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Re: Automation?

Postby tavasti » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:25 pm

jonetsu wrote:
tavasti wrote:If you want to have some wave shape, then you should be using LFO, not automation. And sure, you could use automation to adjust your LFO (haven't done this in ardour, and don't know if it is possible there)


Sure. Where are the LFOs in Ardour again ?

Indeed, you are right, there is no. I am quite amazed :-o
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Re: Automation?

Postby sysrqer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:24 pm

tavasti wrote:
jonetsu wrote:
tavasti wrote:If you want to have some wave shape, then you should be using LFO, not automation. And sure, you could use automation to adjust your LFO (haven't done this in ardour, and don't know if it is possible there)


Sure. Where are the LFOs in Ardour again ?

Indeed, you are right, there is no. I am quite amazed :-o

This is the main reason I thought I would never break away from Renoise, the modulation is so easy but deep and yet ardour can do nothing at all in that way...at least not in an obvious way. I've recently moved over to reaper and I'm not looking back at all, the fact that you can modulate any effect parameter with any signal is amazing, vocal reverbs and delays that duck when there is singing and then opens up when it stops because the wet is modulated by the incoming signal..and things like that are such fun and literally takes a few seconds to set up. And the envelope/automation tools are better than ardour and renoise put together.

lilith wrote:
sysrqer wrote:Having to set write/touch for every single parameter (at least as far as I know there is no global mode), editing is fiddly. It's just over complicated, when you look at the way that programs like ableton live or bitwig can deal with it ardour is horrible to use. It's fine if you need to do a fade in or out but getting in depth is annoying. Having to change tools to make a selection and then change that selection isn't ideal, you can develop reasonably quick ways to work but there's a lot of unnecessary steps. From conversations with Paul I gather that he thinks the whole automation system needs an overhaul but probably won't happen any time soon.


Yes, somehow it feels fiddly. You have to exactly hit the envelope and it feels much smoother in e.g. Reaper.

Yeah, it's a shame because I think it really lets an otherwise amazing program down. Maybe there is a knack that I haven't discovered yet but I find it very time consuming to do anything with automation.

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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:26 pm

Renoise is certainly great in many aspects. I did one piece with it about 2 years ago. I listened to it recently by coincidence and I can still see the hex numbers and the fast scrolling of multitrack data and the totally square rhythm. Laborious. For someone into trackers it might be otherwise but I find it totally counter intuitive. Redux on the other is great and I certainly do not mind programming a beat or a riff. But a whole piece ?

For me it's not Renoise, it's Bitwig. It has a totally awesome modulation system. And it feels natural. For creation that's great. For mixing and mastering, it is still Mixbus32C (Ardour). I find Bitwig lousy at doing any real mixing.

"... vocal reverbs and delays that duck when there is singing and then opens up when it stops because the wet is modulated by the incoming signal..."

Hmmm, yes. Side-chaining, isn't it ?

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Re: Automation?

Postby lilith » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:31 pm

But what I like in Ardour is the in track midi editor. This is much faster than a seperate window imo. Copying automization on the other hand is arghhhh :/
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Re: Automation?

Postby jonetsu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:50 pm

The MIDI track editor in Ardour/Mixbus prevents me from using it. If not I could from time to time when it's down at the mixing stage, add some synth or something, but I find the MIDI track editor quite cumbersome to work with. Just before getting Bitwig I started to play some synth in Ardour and to edit MIDI. I recall it that time as being fastidious. Not as fastidious as doing a full song in Renoise, but overly involved nevertheless.

I consider Ardour/Mixbus as a mixing/mastering console so I'm OK if I don't use MIDI instruments in there. It's no drawback at all.

Cheers.


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